Long Term Steam Routes

I just wonder if such a concept has ever been discussed here?

i.e the establishment of routes able to handle main line steam operations in a "smoother" fashion at present, after some level of investment.

The current popularity of Weymouth from London Victoria/Waterloo springs to mind as one example.

And what impact the installation of some sort of "fixed" watering facility near the mid point. Plus the installation of a turntable at Weymouth, (mentioned to me recently by someone off Forum) would have on such operations.

But leading to a route that could see main line steam operations on a very regular basis, to a popular series of destinations, (Bournemouth, Poole, Swanage as a well as Weymouth in the example I have used), with a long term term future partly because investment has made the operation easier.

All sorts of legal, physical, financial and operational issues spring to the forefront of my mind!

So I'm just interested to know if it's ever been discussed here. And perhaps dismissed out of hand as impossible to even seriously evaluate.

 

Southampton would be a great place to put a mid way water stop in. A water crane at both ends of platform 2&3 would be the best place. Just like the old days. Is there room at Weymouth/Jersey sidings to install a turn table?

 

Hellifield?

 

Long way from Waterloo and Weymouth!

 

Quite a few places on the ECML could seeing as that gets a lot of steam action. Doncaster, Peterborough, York, Berwick, Newcastle.

 

The problem with fixed watering points is not every schedule will allow water to be taken at that point if a route is fairly busy, timings will always vary with the timetable changes and where the tour originate from and their destinations.

Would be a bit silly to put in a water column at say Southampton with all the time and expense and then have NR tell you they are unable to allocate that platform as free for 20 minutes.

Otherwise, we already have some routes with the descriptions you describe, Scarborough has a Turntable and Stratford could have a modest MPD in the mid to long term.

 

I guess we can all think of locations where steam infrastructure like fixed watering points could be installed.

I was more interested in seeing whether any discussion had taken place here about the logistics of getting to the position where such infrastructure could be installed.

i.e

Selection of routes.
Can such routes be legally secured for a decent length of time, (without such an assurance raising finance would seem to be impossible).
Cost/benefit analysis of additional steam infrastructure.
Sources of finance, (the BIG one!).
Use of volunteer labour.
Etc, etc etc.............

Current experience with the Bluebell interface with Network Rail and that of the Swanage Railway could give some pointers.

I guess I am also looking ahead to days when the big railway can't provide the sort of pathways etc that we enjoy today, (ie suppose normal traffic increased and stopped the regular use of steam between Weymouth and Yeovil Junction). But where the introduction of a basic steam infrastructure on a limited number of routes would enable pathways to remain. Combined maybe with other issues that could arise as the years pass over the continuing use of steam on the main line. Issues that could be addressed if there was a more secure, (physically and legally), infrastructure where steam hauled traffic was focused.

Or is the current situation perfectly OK, i.e it ain't broke so don't try and fix it!

 

I would not go for a fixed watering point as it is very restrictive however if there is money to splash I would think about trying to come up with some sort of rapid a road based watering unit. Even possibly a sort of mobile water tower. It may appear I have been drinking and the idea may have little merit but refilling from tankers, hydrants etc is never the quickest.

The obvious solution to speed up would be to raise the height of the storage tanker with a large apperture and hose to discharge the water. Now I am no engineer but I presume it be realistically possible to fit a tank on hydraulics onto the base of say an old mobile crane vehicle. These sort of vehicles appear to be very stable with loads at height due to the extending support arms. They can also take large weights etc

All you then need to do is position prior to the watering stop, hydraulically raise the tank into position and it is ready to use. Presumably you could fill from a hydrant on arrival at the watering point or before hand.

It may be a totally stupid idea but obviously various groups arenow spending money on water carriers so they can travel further etc, but at a cost as it eats into the fare paying passenger numbers. So why not try a bit of off the wall thinking about how to speed up water stops.

 

I dont mind WCRC's new GUV water container seems like the best and most practical.

 

Sounds like a re-invention of the wheel with Steam Locomotive Owners Association ( SLOA ) having the first go some 40 years ago ! viz

[1] Selection of routes : selection from the SLOA period had a steam locomotive depot. Thus Welsh Marches based on Hereford; S&C based on Carnforth for which Hellifield was meant to be a replacement; Tyseley - Didcot with shed at each end.
[2] Can such routes be legally secured : Railways are subject to transport policies; transport policies are set by Government but enacted by operator(s); Governments change hence so do policies.
[3] Cost benefit analysis of additional steam infrastructure : cost / benefit to whom ? Operators ? Local Communities ? Regions ? Heritage Centres ?
[4] Sources of finance : related to [3] as the person / body bearing the cost will be expecting a certain level of benefit which may not be measured in simple terms - or even identified as such. A case in point is the Severn Valley which gains a lotta benefit at little cost from the SVR - a point brought home dramatically in the 2008 floods and which has made the community re-evaluate its commitment to the railway and a greater appreciation of the benefits the SVR generates
[5] Use of volunteer labour : the current H&S environment requires a degree of expertise ( often denoted by a suitable qualification ) which involves the volunteer studying in his own time at his own expense to gain that qualification. This requires a commitment of time and finance that the volunteer may be unable / unwilling to make hence requiring some subsidy that will - inevitably - increase the cost of the product - i.e. steam operation.

The simple fact is that the current willingness of Network Rail to allow Open Access and the experience of locomotive owners to judge the suitability of their locomotives for charter / seasonal operations is probably the best environment to meet the challenge of a constantly changing operating environment whether it be a greater volumne of traffic or raising the average train speed over specific lines or changing the mix of train types being operated.

 

the problem with mobile watering points is that it would then involve the regular movement of fleets of water tankers.

The problem of fixed / semi permentnat watering points is obviously theft and vandalism.

Steam though Manchester is lucky that it was two ideal places for steam engines to stop for water ... the trains in from Liverpool and off the WCML come in via Eccles ... not a busy line where they can stop in a passing loop near the station and under a bridge for the tanker.

Trains through Stockport use Denton station on the Stockport to Guide bridge line. There is only 1 service train a week (admittedly it runs an hour after the summer steam specials).

the local of both stations may make having a fixed stucture rather difficault to keep safe / intact.



Just as a suggestion for a route ... Using Manchester Liverpool Road to go to Bury via Bolton, Blackburn and Huddersfield

 

The current arrangements re your last para may well be the best way for the present: to me as someone who has returned to the UK steam scene after a very long break, they do seem to work. But I just wonder how they will survive into the future. Hence me raising this issue.

And my "vision" of that future for main line steam would be a smaller number of locos operating a smaller number of routes on pathways that had effectively been built into normal timetables. On routes with the maximum passenger potential. Where a cost benefit analysis involving all/many interested parties had shown the best return/least net cost of adding some additional infrastructure makes the operation of steam fit more acceptably into the big railway. I could spend a few days/weeks drafting such an outline analysis. Not the numbers which I don't have access to, but the procedures needed. I have been involved in such work professionally in years gone by, and once produced such an outline analysis as an interested party of South African steam operations, (many years ago) But I have other priorities at present!

So far as securing such routes etc on a legal basis, if, (and I accept it is a very big IF), the will was there up to Government level to protect this part of the UK's industrial heritage then contractual arrangements could be made. Nothing new about that. There were very large numbers of those in the first stages of BR privatisation when I was very closely involved with the sale of subsidiary companies. Chief Accountant I may have been, but I spent an enormous amount of time with our company lawyers. Searching out existing contracts and drawing up new ones. It made an nice change from bean counting! (As if.............! LOL!)

My concern is that just accepting all is well today and will remain so, may not be the right way to approach the constantly changing environment we live in. Would be sad to see so much effort and investment in the main line steam locos themselves slowly wither away as the big railway becomes an impossible environment for them to work in though lack of investment and work in other areas.

Would hate someone to comeback in 25 years, read this and say, "Stupid old sod used to go on and on at times, but sometimes he might have written something worthwhile". LOL!

 

Three quick points: First available paths on busy main lines. Someone mentions the ECML, where even the TOCs cannot get enough paths, so we need to look at lightly used secondary routes. Second, routes used need to go somewhere "attractive" to the general public, and not necessarily mean an 0500 departure and 2330 return! Finally someone mentioned the Welsh Marches route based on Hereford. Sadly since the demise of the Bulmer's Railway Centre there is now no turning triangle, and watering can be problematic with tanker hoses fed under running lines in some cases.

I think also steam runs need to balance distance and cost, not everyone can afford mega fares. Birmingham-Stratford and York-Scarborough stand out as reasonable lengths to my mind. ( excluding the expensive "posh" jobbies from London of course, they attract a particular market, probably only sustainable from London)

 

Well maybe the current arrangements will just go forward. Who knows.

Although I will watch with interest to see what happens at Weymouth in 2012! I can't comment on it's great popularity this year as a steam trip destination. But if I was a tour promoter I would be doing everything I could to establish myself as a provider of very regular trips. Not just to try and reap a big reward during the period of the Olympics, but also afterwards when, as surely they must, the town of Weymouth do whatever they can to keep their name in lights for as many years as they can.

That's when the lack of a simple steam loco infrastructure may hit home. More so if Olympic Fever generates a permanent increase in normal rail traffic that makes light engine movements somewhat harder than at present.

Expect a lot of box hauled trips to Weymouth in 2012? Maybe. Maybe not. But if there was ever a glimmer of a case for creating a minimal steam loco "service and turn" centre anywhere, I reckon Weymouth would be the place to try and get it done over the next two years. Even in cash strapped Britain I reckon there will be an Olympics bandwagon that will see money around for all sorts of projects.

 

As things stand at the moment I feel that "we" have to much of a good thing with open access where in theory steam can go anywhere on the national network.... which in turn leads to water etc problems. So I think it would perhaps be better if we went a little way back to the old days with an assortment of approved routes. Each route would have a "central hub" with permanent/semi permanent watering etc facilities for instance Carlisle where you could have a selection of possible routes the immortal S & C, the Cumbrian coast line to Workington-Barrow-Carnforth, the Newcastle & Carlisle.Admittedly the High Level Bridge over the Tyne is now barred to steam unless it's an emergency due to it's age [and it now has only 2 rather than 3 lines across the rail level], there is though a turntable at Heaton Carriage sidings [though EWS prefer to use their own Tyne yard which doesn't have a table but a triangle]. The West Highland could do with a turntable at Mallaig as well as the Fort..... Another fringe line that could perhaps have permanent fittings and fixtures is the Esk Valley after all the water column is still in place at Battersby, the "arm" on the parachute tank at Grosmont can be swung over both lines [NYMR and Network rail], Whitby at the moment is the main problem with the water supply as it's I believe from the "public" mains with the resultant drop in pressure if an engine is being watered. Though overall I feel that if all interested parties were to come together it should I'd have thought be possible to come up with some sort of arrangements. Even if it meant that the SLOA or whatever it's called these days had to cough up some cash, just like the current Lynton & Barnstable did with the viaduct the the BRB residuary body own. They approached the new L & B asking if they were planning to run trains over the viaduct as the BRB were going to do some work on it from memory the L & B gave about £10-15K and the BRB paid the rest overhauling up to the necessary level. Otherwise they'd just repair it to bridle/cycle/foot path standard.

 

Lostlogin was asking for “a bit of off the wall thinking about how to speed up water stops.” Well, here goes...

At the recent Welland Steam Rally there was an impressive demonstration of relay pumping by a team of four Green Goddess fire appliances. I had not previously realised that they were not designed primarily for conventional fire fighting, but to pump huge quantities of water to cities for fire fighting after a nuclear attack. Their rate of water delivery using a six inch hose is awesome - around 900 gallons per minute. I believe this is achieved using a pump driven from a PTO from the main engine (4.9litre petrol, 110bhp)

This got me thinking – a Green Goddess and a suitable water tanker could refill an empty 5000 gallon loco tender in less than 6 minutes! Just the thing for reducing the duration of water stops to a minimum. Well, OK, maybe it’s not really a serious suggestion, but if the technology of the early fifties allows a road vehicle to deliver that much water that quickly, why couldn’t a modern purpose-built tanker/pump vehicle do so?

 

Liverpool Road has been used for stabling steam in the past and there was a certain royal train there a while ago. Using it as the start of a steam trip although a nice idea I imagine it may throw up a number of problems in implementing- not least the operational railway there and length of platforms!

Surely just a suitable pump unit fitted to an adapted trailer, towed behind a water tanker would suffice to get sufficient head to reduce time for watering?

Regards
Duncan

 

Hi 73129 yes there is room for the turntable to be put back in at weymouth sidings and i was talking to station manager about this idea and he confirmed it was not out of the quesion;and in fact there had been talks about doing just that ;

all the best
jane

 

Interesting Jane. And, as I mentioned above, it there are those seriously thinking of doing it, now is the time. Olympic fever will surely see cash appearing for all sorts of related/semi related projects, so why not one that benefits our cause.

P.S. Not wishing to undermine the expectations of Weymouth re the Olympic sailing contests. But how on earth do you cater for lots of spectators at an event that takes place out at sea? LOL!