LSWR Urie H16 new build proposed?

This was posed on the Mid Hants Railway's YouTube channel last week:



Would you like to see a H16 departing Alresford for Alton on the MHR one day?

If you do I would recommend you join the Urie Locomotive society!

https://uriesociety.co.uk/


Picture source as listed.

 

Out of genuine curiosity, why?

Is there a useful role that the locomotive could perform, does the design have some special significance, or is there some other reason

 

I hadn't heard of this proposal till just now and I have no personal involvement; but ― it seems to me that
a) Yes, there is a useful role that the locomotive could perform, because for this sort of railway a tank engine (if powerful enough) is more suitable than a tender engine that has to run tender-first half the time; and
b) Yes, the design does have some special significance, because pre-grouping tank engines (other than very small ones) are very thin on the ground, and this is an LSWR design.

That said, I'd like to see a few more of the existing new-build projects completed before this one goes beyond the stage of planning and getting drawings.

 

I would prefer to see an H16 departing Swanage for Corfe Castle, but that's another story. As the Urie Society have a spare boiler, they are some way there already.

 

I've just watched the video and there is a definite note of caution as far as the potential H16 is concerned. The narrative goes something like this:- they have a spare boiler. It could be used to fast-track 506 back into service in 10 years' time but building an H16 is another possibility although this idea could well just be a pipe dream. Raising the possibility and then saying "but it might not" is a good way of leaving your options open. If the video leads to a rush of new members and funds all because there is a real groundswell to build the H16, then it may tip the balance in favour of constructing it; if not, then the Urie Society will continue to enjoy the luxury of three boilers for two engines. Obviously, with 506 now in traffic, the priority in the short/medium term will be 499 but thinking ahead and tossing a few ideas around is no bad thing. After all, the A1 group has already decided on its next two engines before the P2 is even finished.

 

Well, for starters they have a boiler, and that's a big plus factor, now, what other parts do they share, or have patterns for, For instance axle boxes , , whats the driving wheel size , front bogie, trailing truck? does the railway does have the skills to fabricate tanks , bunker etc, If you assume 499 takes 3-4 years, then allowing for mid term overhauls on 506 , an H16 could be ready to replace 506 in ten years time, it won't take ten years to build, but fund raising on the back of first 506, then 499 to get frames cut, wheel sets cast, etc, How practical is an H16? I would say very, its tanks are big enough to do several round trips so you have enough water capacity , and rated at 6f powerful enough to haul anything most preserved railways would need, plus if built, it would be a re creation of a lost class, so I would think be quite popular .

 

@martin1656 beat me to it on common parts. From an old duffer who remembers what was (and wasn't) possible 50 years ago, even to be seriously asking questions about the relative component commonality of any CME's output, with a view to recreating what we don't already have 'in stock' still makes me pinch myself at times!

Much as I'd love to see one of the big Urie tanks (the black or green one ..... I'm not fussy!), would the width over cylinders be a factor limiting usefulness?

 

Yes, the Urie locos were wider over the cylinders than the Mansell builds of the H16/ S15 classes, for instance, when the bluebell wanted to enquire about 506 some time back, it was found that whilst it would pass through Horstead Keynes two main platforms, it would fail on the one nearest the station building ,the single line, for that reason Robert Urie was very foreward thinking when you looked at the 4-6-0's Drummond introduced before he took over .

 

All well and good, but where's the copper chimney cap and brass safety valve bonnet?

 

anyone have a large drum of tar, and sack of Feathers?

 

It would be great to see and a new build H16 makes sense but I think it makes more sense to overhaul the boiler a a spear for the two existing engines.

 

Isnt there a derelict H/N 15, if so either

1. Recreate an actual loco, or
2. Potential parts donor

 

The remains of S15 841 still exist on the NYMR, however I'm not sure if the owning group intend to restore it or see it as a useful set of spares for 825 - either way it's probably not available to a new build project

Keith

 

As it steamed in preservation is there any reason why it subsequently became a parts donor?

 

A loco numbered 841 ran in preservation, which is not quite the same thing! The preservation history of the Maunsell S15s, and particularly 841 / 830 / 825 is not straightforward. I believe the primary issue with 841 is the frames are twisted and would require replacement (no longer an insurmountable problem, to be sure) coupled with the fact that the NYMR / Essex Loco Group effectively have only two boilers for three locos, whereas the Urie Society have three boilers for two locos. There has also been a number of tender swaps (including 828 and 847 in the pool) in preservation. So the distribution of frames / boilers / wheels / tenders between the various owning groups that now exists isn’t what existed at the time they were withdrawn.

Tom

 

Not necessary, These locos were built to work.

 

Considering that 7(6?) out of 115 were preserved compared with 18 out of 842 Black 5's their survival rate has been impressive.

 

Just coming back to the original premise about using the spare S15 boiler for a Urie H16: I hope someone is looking rather carefully at the drawings, since the as I recall they aren't the same; in particular the H16 boiler is smaller diameter and (more significantly) shorter distance between tube plates. So the S15 boiler wouldn't fit an H16 without changing some fairly fundamental dimensions...

Tom