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Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by 50044 Exeter, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. Michael B

    Michael B New Member

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    I thought it wasn't necessary to identify the Museum involved as it is still in operation. I heard that the problem was not that Alan Bloom resisted the return of 'Oliver Cromwell', but that he demanded a similar replacement which, I doubt he was entitled to do. But I don't know all the facts. Andrew's resignation caused a letter to 'The Times' (published 15 April 1994) from the ARPS and the 6 leading railway magazine editors demanding to know what was going on, to which, of course, there was no reply. Andrew had a gagging order. Some time later Cossons was a visiting lecturer at my University, and one day he was in the same lift as me and I had to be very restrained and not say anything. In my opinion he should have been dismissed rather than given a knighthood.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
  2. Meatman

    Meatman Member

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    Just out of curiosity, between Andrew leaving and Keith getting the basic 'team we have now' wasn't there the team that actually got the railway we have now built in the first place! Or is there a wish to erase those guys from its more recent history, as for your comment about people not wanting to wait 5-10 years for something to happen, well, how long has it been now only to hear they are pinning their hopes on something that they could have started 12 years ago and as for Lyn, a few experienced steam engineers will tell you exactly what they think of her
     
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  3. Biermeister

    Biermeister New Member

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    Yes Mark, I know what you meant but it wasn't what you wrote. If Breva is correct then 'Sir Charles Wytock' (and I do like the sound of that name which has nothing to do with the L&BR of course as she (he?) worked its life in South Africa) is now 'Sir George Newnes'. This makes the locomotive much more north Devon sounding, something to which we can better relate. This name is clearly not a three-lettered Devon river but who cares as it is relatable to the line in a way that some of the river names are not. In fact there are precious few three-lettered Devon rivers. Those that I can find are: Axe, Exe, Lew, Lyd, Lym (a rivulet which flows through Lyme Regis), Lyn, Sid, Sig (a rivulet which flows through Sigford on eastern Dartmoor), Taw and Yeo. Several of these rise in Somerset too! Most of these have already been used by the L&BR so it is likely that other names will have to be found in future. Four or five-lettered Devon rivers could be used but many other possibilities exist; why not prominent landscape features, e.g tors or bays for instance? Valley of the Rocks would be a fine name for a locomotive too. As ever my imagination carries me forward...

    On the subject of authenticity, how 'authentic' can a replica rebuilt locomotive (or coach) be? Delightful, yes, but authentic I fear not. It is rather a verisimilitude. Furthermore, one would hope that any rebuild would incorporate the best improvements in steam engineering possible. Meatman, who is as close to what's going on as anyone might be, seems to think that there are 'issues' with 'Lyn', or should that be 'Lyn II'? Actually, I do think 'Lyn' is easier and probably better. We aficionados of the L&BR know that the beast in question is not the original but perhaps this might be made clear to visitors. As for funds for chimney capping, I was really flying a kite, though I think such ornamentation on the brutalist-Baldwin locomotive would give it a measure of domestication, a softening of its rough north American origins. As for SGN, well why not? The extra funding is a minor issue, surely?

    At heart I think that while the L&BR is being recreated, it should include whatever design improvements exist that will improve all aspects of its performance and enhance beauty, beyond a slavish copying of the original. These will surely enhance its broader appeal.
     
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  4. Michael B

    Michael B New Member

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    The idea of recreating the originals incorporating the benefits of the last 120 years technology is admirable, but with carriages, why was it necessary to paint the inside of third class white (Magazine 120 page 9 for example) when they were scumbled, and probably originally varnish wood as per the attached picture inside the coach at York ? To Seat 4 whole.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
  5. Old Kent Biker

    Old Kent Biker Member

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    [​IMG]
    Bagnall No. 2819 - Charles Wytock - is a 4-4-0T, built in 1945, originally for a South African sugar plantation. Now privately owned by a consortium of (mostly?) L&B members, and once again resident at Woody Bay, the loco has recently been fully restored, including heavy boiler repairs, and is now renamed Sir George Newnes. Is this a fitting tribute to the driving force that created the Lynton & Barnstaple Railway in the 1890s? What other "non-native" locos could be an asset to the renascent L&B, and who could they be named after?​
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
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  6. oliversbest

    oliversbest Member

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    Without George Newnes there would have been no L & B. Arise Sir George!
     
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  7. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

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    Sir James Weeks Szlumper.
    Now there's a name for a loco.
     
  8. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    Szlumper the Shunter ? :)
     
  9. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    If there's one person above all who kept the memory of the line alive and in my books deserves a nameplate that person would have to be the L&B's biographer L.T. Catchpole
     
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  10. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    Slight correction - I believe the loco is still under restoration and the boiler is new rather than heavily repaired.
     
  11. Michael B

    Michael B New Member

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    The evidence suggests Sir James Szlumper didn't do the Company many favours. He severely underestimated the cost of building the Railway and implied that the stations would cost £50 each (£650 included for six), whereas the 'chalet' stations that Newnes wanted cost £400 to £500. He made no provision for the costs of getting the Bill through Parliament, legal, surveying and otherwise, or paying an Engineer or other advisers during construction, let alone interest on Capital subscribed by Shareholders during that period for which there was provision in the Act (which cost £2,000), underwriting the Share Capital or building repairing shops. 'They are never included; there may not be any at all. A repairing shop is no part of the railway, and not included in the estimate.' Shades of the North Wales Narrow Gauge Railways where he was Engineer, so all repairs had to be contracted to Port Dinorwic. Although it could be argued the railway would not have beaten the standard gauge Filleigh scheme through Parliament if it had been known how much it would ultimately cost, or even if it had, would it have raised the necessary capital ? Szlumper's worst 'crime' was as Arbitrator (with a conflict of interest as Consulting Engineer) awarding the contractor all that money for blasting.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021
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  12. Biermeister

    Biermeister New Member

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    Just look at her/him/it! Let's hope she brings much joy to many L&B travellers. She looks powerful enough to tame those hefty gradients. And by way of decorative improvement, wouldn't a brass chimney cap be the crowning glory!
     
  13. ross

    ross Member

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    I'll grant you that a traditional Bagnall chimney with cap would improve her looks, I cannot recall a single Bagnall that had other than an iron chimney cap. Certainly I haven't found any photo of a Bagnall with a brass or copper cap.
    Whilst Exe, Taw, Yeo and Lew had brass chimney caps, Wytock/Newnes bears not even a passing resemblance to the Manning Wardles, The new Lyn has not been built with the Baldwin cap-stack that adorned the original, and in Southern days it seems Brasso was used sparingly, if at all. It seems that shiny chimney caps just weren't an L&B thing
     
  14. 62440

    62440 New Member

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    I believe Cossons claimed that railway history was “not highly regarded or even recognised in the broad spectrum of historical studies and there are no obvious advancements of knowledge or interpretation to a wider audience.”

    Hmmm. I think you were VERY restrained.
     
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  15. SpudUk

    SpudUk Well-Known Member

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    While I broadly agree with what you're saying, I do have to take exception to this (as someone who wrote a paper on history vs heritage and the value of authenticity). Authenticity isn't a superlative, it's not the case that something either is or isn't authentic. In fact rather then being something intrinsic authenticity is a 'socially mediated experience' and replicas therefore have a life story of their own that diverges from the original historical object and is influenced by their own story rooted in place and social context. The story of these replicas link the lives of the copies and their original inspirations. No genuine replica railway vehicle is a fake or counterfeit, but rather an attempt to offer an experience of truthfulness to a social and historical context based on setting, materials, craftsmanship etc., and the story behind it's construction. A railway carriage, for example, built with similar materials to a similar design, rooted in the social context of railway travel in an era (with a particular reference to class) that is carrying people along the same route has a much greater authenticity then you give it credit for.

    So, while I'd happily argue until the cows come home about whether an object is a facsimile, a pastiche or a replica, authenticity is something that sits separate to that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021
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  16. Meatman

    Meatman Member

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    I saw her in bits a few weeks ago and she is an impressive size, now back on her wheels as I understand it, when she was last working she seemed to handle the gradient from Killington Lane to Woody Bay OK but she has a marine boiler which I believe has a smaller grate area, there has been discussion on here about this before so it will be interesting to see how she handles longer gradients, if she gets the chance that is!
     
  17. Mark Thompson

    Mark Thompson Well-Known Member

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    Meriam- Webster contradicts itself, in that it it describes authentic as the true and genuine article, also a faithful replica or copy.
    Personally, FWIW, I think of "authenticity " as a benchmark which separates something from a mere pastiche.
     
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  18. Michael B

    Michael B New Member

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    When the Railway gets longer a replica Lyn can be built in original condition and you can have your brass chimney cap.
     
  19. ross

    ross Member

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    I don't want one, particularly.
     
  20. SpudUk

    SpudUk Well-Known Member

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    Taken from Facebook regarding the Sir George Newnes chimney fundraiser:

     
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