Midland and South Western Junction Railway

Hello all,

Yes, it's another one of those "I've got a really good idea for a new heritage railway" threads, so I more then prepared for the following abuse, negative comments and inevitable poo-pooing of the idea.

Anyway, on a number of recent jaunts I have been researching further the Midland and South Western Junction Railway, as well as having some interesting chats with gentleman from the Tidworth Community Area Partnership.

I believe, and they agree, that an organisation should be form to work closely with both Network Rail and the MoD to encourage the creation of a heritage railway, with commuter services (where possible), between the MoD platform at Andover and Ludgershall, with a view to an extension into the beautiful village of Collingbourne. This would create a heritage line of around 9 miles. There would, hypothetically, be a station at Weyhill to serve both the town and the world famous Hawk Conservancy there.

The dream (for me personally) would also be the creation of a Museum of Army Transport at Ludgershall using the exhibits from the now closed Museum of Army Transport that was based in Beverley.

If anyone is interested in the idea or jumping on board, then please do PM me. If anyone knows of similar projects in the area (excluding the Go! Cooperative one) then also PM me.

 

As you expected a negative response, let me make a start!

Firstly Swindon and Cricklade already exists only a cough and a spit away.

Secondly the challenge will be to keep what exists going, both in terms of labour and financial assistance. As an example the Bluebell, straining to complete its extension by a given date, was rather distracted IMHO from the need to keep its existing operation going. All of a sudden there was a locomotive "emergency". Never mind extensions, even established schemes will struggle to keep things together and remember nothing larger than a "Terrier" has been re-boilered.

Really the time for the "wouldn't it be nice" brigade should have passed twenty years ago.

PH

 

Oh Paul, we can always count on you!

 

Well it has a head start in that some infrastructure is there.

Doing a few sums, roughly (VERY) 1.5m people ride our trains annually (ALL heritage lines). This is about 2.4% of population. Growth projections suggest another 8m will live in the UK in 20 years time....that is a further 400k passengers from population growth alone, which is equivalent to another NYMR. It suggests that a VERY small number of new lines, if done properly and well, and located suitably, might stand a chance. Assuming that the existing railways don't manage to hold onto their share of the market.

I expect that in reality we will see some departures from the scene, and some new arrivals. Personally I would rather the traffic increase went to the existing railways, but there might be the odd corner of the country where that doesn't work. 15" gauge line to Ilfracombe anyone?

 

Set up the 'organisation' of which you speak and see how you get on. The proof will be in the pudding.

However...

Given that a number of railways have tried this over the years, and not once has it ever proved feasible in even the medium-term, I wouldn't get too carried away with that part of the idea.

 

Someone has to be ready with the bucket of water/chloroform sponge!

P_H

 

Sorry Chris but you said it yourself - the project is "a dream". I will repeat,yet again, my concern that the proliferation of 'crackpot' schemes will jeopardise the long-term future of our already established lines. Ray.

 

Couple of points.
Swindon + Cricklade is a bit more than a spit away, somewhere nearer 30 miles at a rough guess.
How many existing lines are closer than 30 miles ?
Mid hants may be closer than that to Andover.

Does the existing Andover - Ludgershall line run all the way into Andover station independantly?
If it does then that is a clear advantage over a lot of other sites that just run to the vicinity of a place rather than to a NWR connection.
Is there any credible potential local commuter traffic? Andover to any estates etc?

Is the trackbed north from Ludgershall still relatively intact or not? Any major earthworks etc?
Is there any potential traffic points on the route beyond Ludgershall.
Is Highclere Castle near the route? "Downton Abbey" link potentially.

Is Military traffic still running?
If the Wensleydale can work around irregular Military traffic it should be possible here as well.

How many times over the years have people said there are enough lines now we don't need any more.
I heard it in the 70s a number of times.

If you don't try it you will never know if you are right or not.

 

Highclere Castle is little nearer than Cricklade is to Ludgershall. Any Downton Abbey" effect would be transient just as "Heartbeat" was for the NYMR.

"No more lines" was not said loudly enough or often enough to make the "wouldn't it be nice" brigade listen. They got away with it whilst one could get hold of stuff for next to nothing. Now this stuff is beginning to need major repair or replacement and nothing is cheap anymore. Existing major lines will be hard pressed to raise the necessary finance.

It needs "to be tried" no more than Russian Roulette!

PH

 

I have to admit that PH is correct on the subject of major repair and replacement. Several heritage railways are now spending considerable sums of money on their infrastructure and rolling stock; the one that comes easily to my mind (of course!) is the GWSR which had to fund a colossal amount to repair 2 damaged embankments and, since then it has: continued with the rebuild of Broadway Station, started replacing Platform 2 at Cheltenham Race Course, installed a water treatment plant (reverse osmosis I think, or is that a hip-hop group?), invested in a soon to be handed over C&W paint/repair/store shed at Winchcombe, completed a diesel shed at Toddington, started concreting the floor of the steam loco shed at Toddington, spent £10K on carriage steam heat and other equipment, purchased 2 late model Mk 1 coaches in good nick, cleared out many more culverts and carried out the usual day to day maintenance over a line that is 2.something miles longer than it was before the dreadful embankment slips, run several new events to keep the visitors coming and so on. The GWSR can do this because of where it is ( a year round tourist area), its experience (running trains since 1984), the fact that people invest in it and some bequeath money to it in their wills et etc. Any "new" railway coming on the scene now might not fail but it sure won't be able to offer an "experience" like the GWSR, Bluebell, NYMR, SVR, WSR and so on. Not all railways need to offer such an experience but those that do are tending to invest like hell, often with money from a number of sources and begging bowls.
I have a soft spot for the M&SWJR but it would be better if the Ludgershall-Andover section (which is still used by MOD trains I'm sure, was reopened as a National Network line with passenger services. Let the Swindon and Cricklade (which still doesn't run to either place yet!) fly the heritage flag for the M&SWJR!

 

Not much scope for a commuter service.There is a bus service at 30 min frequency which serves both the rail station and town centre in Andover.
Swindon is 33 miles from Andover,while Alresford is only 22 miles.

 

Yea, there is a complete running line into Andover, a disused platform, loop and sidings.

The route is clear to Collingbourne. Alternatively, the remaining formation to Tidworth could be used instead, with a station on the outskirts of what is also becoming a major town.

Yes, but highly intermitently. In all the times I've visited I've never seen a movement, but they do happen.

The route from Andover to Ludgershall is intact and in good condition. That alone would be a 7 mile railway. The Swindon and Cricklade is heavily constrained by geography. It can only ever run from Cricklade to Mouldon Hill and is always going to suffer from being difficult to get to. I got lost getting there twice!

I'd hardly call it a crack-pot scheme Ray, and find it quite offensive that you would say that without know me or the local area.

And as for you Paul, there is little point debating the idea with you as you believe the heritage sector has reached critical mass and will dismiss any new idea that comes along...

 

[quote="SpudUk, post: 624937, The Swindon and Cricklade is heavily constrained by geography. It can only ever run from Cricklade to Mouldon Hill quote]

Good! That will put a constraint on things.

PH

 

I too would love any/all railways to re-open,

However, even if money was no problem for the rolling stock and infrastructure. The real problem is the shortage of volunteers. I know several well established railways that at times struggle for staff.

These are in reasonably well populated areas. How a new railway in the middle of nowhere or next to an established railway will go on is not certain and should not be underestimated .

Also any volunteers used in the new venture are staff lost to the existing railways.

There are only so many hours in a day and you can't be in two places at once!

Adrian

 

Although I have my reservations about the scheme being discussed here, I should point that that "Heartbeat" has been benefitting the NYMR for many years now, and there is still interest in it. Having said that, the railway was an integral part of many of the plotlines and was an ever-present part of the background. I can't see how there could be a "Downton effect" on the MSJW - there's no connection other than being vaguely in the same neck of the woods, not that close even.

As has been said, the era of the new steam-era railway is more or less over as the ingredients are not readily available, and are certainly no longer available cheaply.

 

I'm sorry to say it, and I don't want to tar all new projects with the same brush, but I can't see that many new projects are going to get further than a Facebook group... If I'm honest this is a response to probably all of the new-line threads I've looked through, so sorry it's rambling a bit!

First thought is infrastructure-Today's non-enthusiast passengers are looking for a vintage experience. True enough, some people won't care too much if the engine on the front of the train is a Barclay or a Britannia, but I feel they will know if the whole experience is a cheaply put-together pastiche. So to be a real experience, you need stations and infrastructure that is mainly original or complete, unless you have huge amounts of money to do a new build job properly (like Kidderminster). So will a brand new line with no funding and a small project team realistically be able to do things well enough to their budget that passengers keep coming back? Even just enamel signs and milk churns are going to cost a packet...

Second thought-stock. I said that I don't think most passengers care too much if they're behind a Barclay or a Britannia as long as it has steam and a whistle. But doesn't coaching stock matter too? I'm guessing most of the decent Mk1s left have been snapped up now, and that most older coaches that are available are going to be unrestored. The Bluebell do carriage restoration as well as anybody, and it takes years upon years for them to restore a coach, with an established team, workshop, some funding, and tons of experience. As a new line, can you provide that level of support? If not, I'm assuming that you'll end up with Mk2s, which to even the most uninterested observer aren't exactly vintage or something that will keep you coming back. And at the Bluebell (the most established of all standard gauge lines) in the last few weeks we've seen a struggle to meet traffic requirements loco-wise(not a dig). This is a line with 30 odd locos, paid staff, decent workshops, established volunteer teams, and still things have been temporarily dicey. I'm struggling to see how a brand new line is going to match this. Will you be able to buy locos? And are you able to find/fund four or five working, strong and economical engines with interesting histories? Or if not working, have you got space, money and expertise to rebuild something from Barry condition?

Next-volunteers. I can't think of a line (P&DSR excepted) which isn't crying out for more volunteers. And any volunteers with the holy grail of experience and knowledge will likely have been snapped up years before. So will you be able to find volunteers who have enough nous to run a workshop, handle the accounts, lay and maintain PW, upkeep an S&T system, look after all the buildings, successfully fundraise, and a multitude of other things? Lets not forget that we live in pretty safety conscious days as well-things have to be done properly...

I'm sorry for being so negative-the last thing I want to do is squash genuine enthusiasm and entrepreneurship. But what if this was channelled somewhere else? I can see two possibilities. One, a struggle to establish something in the way of a new line. Probable disappointment, after maybe years of work, and worst case scenario-somebody with loads of preservation possibilities feeling burnt by the whole movement and taking up gardening instead. Or two, that person takes their enthusiasm and throws it into a project somewhere established already. Somewhere where there's support, backing, funding, facilities, and experienced colleagues to help. And that enthusiasm results in something actually being finished, and motivates others...

On the other hand, if this line takes off and is a huge success, then I gladly eat my words!

 

Re Downton Abbey: worth remembering that the railway scenes were filmed at the Bluebell, which already uses that connection in some of its marketing, especially for its vintage trains, so no connection with a putative M&SWJR revival. As for proximity to Highclere itself - it is, but only in the same way that Sheffield Park is near the Brighton Royal Pavillion. It's not the sort of distance that you would readily travel to from one of the stations, even if a special bus was put on (e.g. it's not a possibility like Dunster Station to Dunster Castle, or Alresford to Jane Austen's house).

The existing mainline connection and infrastructure at least gives a leg up, but it isn't the most touristy bit of the world. Tidworth is a garrison town, not exactly a tourist hotspot. The Collingbournes are pretty villages, but no more so than hundreds of others in England. Andover is essentially a dormitory town for London and Basingstoke these days. If you wanted a new heritage line in the area, and could overcome all the practical issues well explained by Dan, then I still wouldn't start at Andover. Chiselhampton (1 mile off the M4) to Marlborough (an excellent destination) is similar length; largely unbuilt on and runs through a pleasant valley between the two ends and would seem to offer far more than the southern end of the line. Good road connections will always trump good rail connections - in my view. But even that is cloud cuckoo land now, for all the reasons Dan has outlined.

Tom

 

In fairness to Paul, anyone who airs an idea about anything in a public space like an internet forum is doing themselves a profound disservice if they adopt the "La-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you" approach, simply because someone doesn't agree with their plan/vision/dream/fantasy (delete as applicable).

For some reason, many users of the Republic of Internetshire seem to have a real problem with people who err on the side of strict pragmatism and go "Er, no. That's a really bad idea and you're wasting your time." There seems to be this unwritten, Mumsnet-esque rule that you have to either (a) go into full on simpering "Why darling, that's a perfectly wonderful idea" mode or (b) keep quiet and not say anything.

To me this is symptomatic of one of the most profound ills of modern day society, the fact that 'no' seems to be a dirty word. It either has to be 'yes' or nothing,

May I suggest you locate a gentleman by the name of Alfred Roberts? A remarkable visionary to whom any railway reopening scheme is possible - and, indeed, highly desirable - he's just the kind of 'bit betweeen his teeth' chap you need. He's rumoured to do a handy line in asbestos removal, too

 

There is a distinct difference between pragmatism and telling someone it's a waste of time. Indeed Paul adopts a similar "La-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you" of which you speak, just in the opposite direction, unwilling to believe that any new railway route is a good idea. Constructive criticism is surely more welcome?

Anyway, I shall continue to check with organisations, stakeholders and residents in the local area and see what they think.

Oh and please don't compare me to the legend that is Alfred Roberts! This was merely mooting the idea, not stating this will happen, have agreed loans of stock from various mysterious sources and, more importantly, we already know it's going to be a huge financial success.

 

On the contrary I hear you only too well. Thirty, even twenty years ago you could get away with a scheme involving a not particularly interesting railway running through not particularly attractive scenery (sorry residents) with a not particularly brilliant catchment area. Quite a lot of existing heritage railways have one or other of these problems and , in some instances, one could thing of better alternatives in their areas but what is done is done.

Now we have another "wheeze" but one facilitated by the internet. The main differences are that equipment is harder to come by, things are more expensive and, crucially, customer expectations are higher. I am aware of one line which started services without any sanitary facilities available to its passengers at all. Nowadays it has some of the best around but there is no way it could start services in 2013 in that state. Increasingly the real world intrudes into that of the gricer and whilst this is an inconvenient truth it is the truth nevertheless.

PH