If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Mk1 Suburbans

Discussion in 'Heritage Rolling Stock' started by M59137, Dec 20, 2010.

  1. M59137

    M59137 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    2,113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Carriage & Wagon
    Location:
    Sheringham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Having just been reading the interesting appeal recently launched by the Midland & Great Northern Joint Railway Society for the proposed restoration of four of these vehicles (leaflet here), I was wondering if the "general preservation" of these vehicles had ever been discussed on here?

    Are there those out there who (like me) find these vehicles quite interesting, or are they just Mk1's to you? I always make a bee-line for the "sub" if there is one in the formation, a friendly North Norfolk guard even kindly re-opened a locked compartment for me! (there was one suburban in a train of "normal" Mk1s which was locked out during the quieter diesel hauled last round trip)

    It would seem like their use has been declining in recent years, as I struggle to recall any overhauled examples coming on stream recently. I know of examples at Keighley & Llangollen, so are there enough anywhere else to run future sets?

    The examples stored on my local line have certainly seen better days!! I would be interested to hear if any railways have one of these vehicles undergoing overhaul at present, or any future plans that may see a return of these unloved and often forgotten Mk1s...
     
  2. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,803
    Likes Received:
    622
    There are two in regular service at the North Tyneside Steam railway - I travelled in them late last month. We have one at NRM if anyone would like to take it on for restoration.
     
  3. OldChap

    OldChap Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    401
    Likes Received:
    150
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
  4. Stewie Griffin

    Stewie Griffin Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2009
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    5
    Where is the NRM's one currently located please Anthony?
     
  5. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,803
    Likes Received:
    622
    South Yard at NRM, pm me if you want to arrange a look
     
  6. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,217
    Likes Received:
    1,456
    BS 53100 (43289) is under restoration at the East Somerset. I know the owner and have some idea of his plans for it but it isn't for me to say.
     
  7. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,217
    Likes Received:
    1,456
  8. M59137

    M59137 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    2,113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Carriage & Wagon
    Location:
    Sheringham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Nice to hear of an example already under restoration. Any images available anywhere showing work in progress, or is it a private project?
     
  9. dace83

    dace83 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,095
    Likes Received:
    4
    At major events like the ww2 weekend the railway is finding it hard to move people about. There isn't enough coaches, hence the need for the set. The lottery is being looked at, hopefully they will be succesful again.
     
  10. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,593
    Likes Received:
    505
    Occupation:
    Senior Finance Auditor
    Location:
    Kent
    They are interesting vehicles and they do move a lot of punters but they are a restoration and maintenance nightmare. Huge numbers of doors to maintain, huge numbers of small badly designed side lights and lots of places for water to get in. The side lights are of early Mk1 design which are fixed from inside with a seal of mastic between the glass and frame. This leaks fairly quickly as it dries out and with the vibration of the vehicle when it operates and hence the body rot starts. Once this happens the sheeting rots from the inside out, the frame rots and the doors stop opening and closing properly due to rust deformation. To repair them properly would tie a good team up for years and would require the use of body jigs to stop the frame distorting with heat build up from the welding. Bluebell had 3 of them and that is exactly what happened. Windows leaked - bodies rotted - doors stopped working. The frame and sheeting was repaired - and when it came to hang the doors on they didn't fit! End of Mk1s on the Bluebell for many years. End of the Suburbans there for ever. They later went to North Tynside who I understand sis sucessfully revieve them.

    To repair them is a massive job. Then it is an absolute must to store them undercover.
     
  11. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,217
    Likes Received:
    1,456
    I don't have any photos. I did see the vehicle before the project started; it had rot in all the usual Mk.1 suburban places i.e. a lot of doors and window bottoms to fix, and the bottom of the bodyside. It's being done as a contract overhaul and is costing more money that I could afford!
     
  12. M59137

    M59137 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    2,113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Carriage & Wagon
    Location:
    Sheringham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Interesting comments about restoration.

    Do you think that undercover storage would prolong their life long enough to make the door/body restoration worth it?
     
  13. INSPIRATION

    INSPIRATION New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2010
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    9
    Possibly the way of prolonging the life expectancy on the mk1 when reskinning when its the type with the window glass sealed with the aroboseal tape to the body is to use galvanised sheet steel for re skinning rather than the usual bright sheet. Obviously some areas will be exposed from welding but it should prolong the life generally around the window and door edges. Mordant soluton (T wash) would be used prior to painting.
     
  14. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,593
    Likes Received:
    505
    Occupation:
    Senior Finance Auditor
    Location:
    Kent
    Think the KWVR had the best idea and modified the windows to use external window frames fixed from the outside. This is as per later Mk1 spec. That way water doesn't get in at all!

    If you store a vehicle undercover it will last almost for ever. Most of the damage done is through sunlight, rain, wind and temperature differential (i.e expansion and contraction of materials). Store it inside when its not in use (about 99% of its time) and the destructive effects of sunlight on paint, wood and canvas are severly reduced. Keep it inside and no water gets in. Simples!

    Using galv sheeting will result in your paint often not sticking and it won't protect the frame which is the most critical part anyway. Should you need to grind, drill a hole through or weld you will lose the advantage of galv and that is where the corrosion will start. roud windows and door frames you are going to weld, drill holes and grind... reskinning a Mk1 is a measure cut, measure, cut, tack and weld process with much faffing around in between. Galvanising is a factory process which involves hot dipping complete sheets. It isn't really practical to do all this then send it off for hot dipping - and then start the next section.

    A good example of this is the GN Saloon on the Bluebell. Never been stored outside and as far as I can remember has operated every year since it arrived at the Bluebell straight from traffic. Heavy maintenance only has been done through the winter. Compare that to coaches such as 6575 which have been through the restoration, traffic, withdrawn cycle several times.

    Want it to last - stick it in a shed. That way capital expenditure in restoration will repay itself hopefully for decades to come. Leave them outside in their original design configeration and you will be back to square 1 within 15 years. Not that long considering it may take 5 years to repair. When you consider that most work on a body is around the doors and windows when you look at a Suburban it makes you consider playing with a TSO very shortly afterwards!!
     
  15. M59137

    M59137 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    2,113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Carriage & Wagon
    Location:
    Sheringham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    A correlation between railways that have carriage sheds and those with working suburban and pre-Mk1 rakes is certainly apparent. I believe the K&WVR suburban's are usually to be found in the carriage shed at Oxenhope? Similarly, large railways with earlier stock i.e Severn Valley also have sheds for coaches.

    Perhaps then the only sustainable future for these otherwise high maintenance Mk1 vehicles is an undercover one? I would hope that the proposed North Norfolk Sub set if/when completed would earn a place next door to the Quad Art set in their lovely Bridge Road Sheds? (very jealous of that building!! :)) Digressing slightly, I have peered through the doors before (with the aid of a lineside pass) but due to the darkness inside have failed to glimpse the Quads yet, but they still look excellent in every image I've seen them in, I'm sure they would have lost their shine by now had they not been undercover and away from the sun from day 1 after the restoration.

    Hopefully as more railways develop facilities for storing their carriages we may see a change for the good in the ratio of stored and operational suburbans. Another question, what would you spend more time maintaining: a suburban (with all its doors) that is stabled in an open sided shed such as that at Oxenhope, or a standard Mk1 (with say only 4 doors) stabled outside? Would the advantages of the roof outweigh the extra doors?

    Are we likely to see any more carriage running sheds (i.e. sheds that can swallow entire rakes) in the next, say, 5 years?
     
  16. norfolkman1

    norfolkman1 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2008
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    2
    The M&GN Societys suburbans are already tucked away in their carriage shed at Bridge road thankfully, except the one in regular use ! We are lucky at the NNR to have the facilities we have.
     
  17. M59137

    M59137 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    2,113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Carriage & Wagon
    Location:
    Sheringham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I notice in the M&GN Society's appeal that they list the two remaining suburbans (a BS & CL) as for sale if a suitable offer was made. Does this include the current runner (BS) or am I mistaken? Would like to know if there was a particular reason for that, if it's not classified info of course! :)
     
  18. Ian1210

    Ian1210 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2010
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    BT Engineer
    Location:
    Leeds
    Interesting thread.

    KWVR tends to use a combination of "subs" and "Gen Mk1" on its trains. There are usually two "subs" and two "ordinary" Mk 1 coaches in a set, supplemented by the famous bar car selling its real ale wares. They are well maintained and KWVR have modified their "subs" over the years to prevent water ingress and the dreaded tinworm which results from it.

    Perhaps the only small "grumble" is that KWVR rarely run them as complete "sets" with an appropriate loco hauling them - best chance of this is the winter, when I have seen the occasional three car "sub" set with 80002 or 41241 hauling it - memories of the 1960's come flooding back!

    If NNR do a similar job to the Quad Art, then we are in for a treat both for the standard of restoration and also to see the development of suburban stock between the Quad Art & early BR practice - all they will need is a Pacer to bring it right up to date!
     
  19. thegrimeater

    thegrimeater Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2008
    Messages:
    504
    Likes Received:
    78
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Admin
    Location:
    Huntingdon/Sheringham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I would hope LEV1 serves that purpose. That is an interesting piece of railway history. Who'd travel in a pacer for fun?
     
  20. dace83

    dace83 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,095
    Likes Received:
    4
    Just been re varnished
     

Share This Page