If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Moorlands and City Railway

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Guest, Oct 14, 2009.

  1. John Stewart

    John Stewart Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,206
    Likes Received:
    2,070
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Hilton, Derby
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Three reasons:
    1. You can't turn a train on a turntable.
    2. It would be possible to run from Leek to Cauldon.
    3. I suspect that a chord is cheaper. After all, three complete sides were installed at Valley instead of a turntable.

    If a turntable is wanted as an attraction in its own right, Cheddleton yard or the southern end of the CVR might be a better place. Of course, what I'd really like is to see Cheddleton returned to green fields and the CVR works transferred to the former Bolton's site.
     
  2. p/wayman

    p/wayman New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    573
    Likes Received:
    168
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    voulunteer on pway
    Location:
    newcastle-u-lyme
    I don't think a turntable would be suitable but an easier option would be a triangle with the third chord coming off the Stoke line and joining the CVR line. I cannot see a lot of traffic wanting the Leek to Cauldon line but if so could use the Leekbrook platform to reverse up there.
     
  3. Kenneth

    Kenneth New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Clerk of Works
    Location:
    Stoke-On-Trent
    Interestingly, this was the preferred option by the previous people who were interested in re-opening the line (Kilbride Properties). I think it was the difficulties in providing this chord that put them off the scheme. We are jumping a long way ahead, here, but surely for heritage use the best way would be to provide turntables both at Leek and Alton. My suspicion is that further capital spend will be concentrated on the construction of passenger facililities, as well as the need to re-double the line from Milton junction to Stoke.
     
  4. p/wayman

    p/wayman New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    573
    Likes Received:
    168
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    voulunteer on pway
    Location:
    newcastle-u-lyme
    But where are these turntables coming from, are there any about?
     
  5. Kenneth

    Kenneth New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Clerk of Works
    Location:
    Stoke-On-Trent
    As I said, we're jumping a long way ahead here, but when we're generating a station footfall of 1million plus at Leek, and similar at Alton, then anything is possible. A lot will depend how the heritage and commercial elements of the project inter-relate, and this is exciting and undiscovered territory for all of us. In fact, we're entering a totally unique realm in Railway Preservation, so let's continue to dream with both feet firmly on the ground!
     
  6. N.StaffsNeil

    N.StaffsNeil New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Newcastle under Lyme
    There's lots of speculation on here as to what can be achieved and what should be done. First and foremost though is the completion of the line to Stoke, and the reinstatement of the quarry link. The return of freight should provide the revenue to see further extensions to Leek and Alton Towers and possibly Hanley one day.
     
  7. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    As I said in a previous post, when railway preservation gets romantic, then take cover!

    P.H.
     
  8. p/wayman

    p/wayman New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    573
    Likes Received:
    168
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    voulunteer on pway
    Location:
    newcastle-u-lyme
    I must agree with you there but I think that the Stoke-CVR cord is vital to get the Alton traffic to their destination. Not being a railwayman by trade it looks like a tight radius but looking at Leekbrook platform only the south half is where the line is,so take off the north end and rebuild it on the south end. This might ease the radius as it would give a lot more room in front of the signal box leaving it in the middle of a triangle. Just my own thoughts here there maybe reasons why this could not be done, but a train of Tower visitors waiting for the train to reverse with the driver changing ends all adds to the time getting there.
     
  9. John Stewart

    John Stewart Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,206
    Likes Received:
    2,070
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Hilton, Derby
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The dilemma here is that the west-to-south chord is commercially better but is obtainable only at vast engineering cost and with land acquisition from multiple owners either at hugely inflated prices or via a CPO under T&WA powers. I cannot see the latter being politically acceptable. The north-to-east curve is less commercially attractive but is on a railway trackbed so the physical works would not be much more than vegetation clearance, drainage and tracklaying. Land would still have to be acquired but its current state would suggest that such may not be too difficult a negotiation.
     
  10. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    No way can I comment upon curve radii etc. My real concern about some other postings on this thread is that they can sound dangerously close to La La land.

    If the freight operation gets underway jolly good. Everything else is speculative, especially so the "public service" aspect. It strikes me that supporters need to calm down a little.

    P.H.
     
  11. Kenneth

    Kenneth New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Clerk of Works
    Location:
    Stoke-On-Trent
    Paul, it seems to me that you haven't read the public statements of MCR (see website). Consider the following:
    Stone - recently re-opened after extensive campaigning - population 14,258, station footfall 2009 48,054 (looks likely to have doubled again since then)
    Skipton(Yorks) - established station - population 14,313, station footfall 2009 878,662
    Leek - population 18,768, established but isolated market town
    And this is not counting the heavy sub-urban population next to the Stoke line, or the massive potential for tourist traffic.
    Do you think the businessmen investing in this scheme haven't done their sums?
     
  12. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,657
    Likes Received:
    1,774
    Location:
    Nantwich, Cheshire
    With regards to the Turntables/Triangle. Well in my opinion a turntable at both ends is/would be a complete waste of money. The triangle is smack bang in the Centre of the railway. Any Incoming railtours can come straight in (and could go straight up to Cauldon if they wanted) towards leek. Then the CVR loco comes on at the other end, and the mainline loco uncouples and turns at the triangle and heads to ched to be fuelled ready for its return to the mainline.

    The positives for bringing back the triangle at Leekbrook are also turning the coaches to even out tyre wear, fading of paintwork of rolling stock, and it means at galas in the future (as long as all plans go ahead of course) you could depart leek and go directly to Cauldon then head back but in the direction of Ched or the other way round. Plus those of you who know me better have seen my plans to re build the engine shed in the centre of the triangle, as maybe a mainline depot to rival Crewe Heritage centre.
    [​IMG]

    But of course all of this depends on funding etc so i am talking in the future and we will have to see if it all takes off first.

    Gavin
     
  13. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    To quote Lewis Carroll's The Hunting of the Snark:- "They threatened his life with a railway share"! So it was in the nineteenth century and so it is now. Tourist railways do raise money from their supporters on the clear basis that they are unlikely to see a return. The current proposal seems in danger of inflating a hard nosed business plan to aid extraction of minerals (hopefully current economic difficulties do not hinder this) into a classic piece of railway enthusiasts wishful thinking.

    P.H.
     
  14. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    2,848
    Likes Received:
    542
    Location:
    Isle of Wight
    It pains me to say it, but what evidence is there to suggest they have?

    If MCR had, or were expecting, the financial muscle to even consider a new platform on NR land near Stoke, national network speeds, 4 freight services a day, commercial passenger services, a new Station at Leek and reopening to Alton Towers, why would they need £200k from the CVR? Their plans almost certainly need many tens of millions.

    For the same reason, i cant see why they'd need, or want, CVR volunteers spending their time on MCR track instead of the CVR's, and a basic reopening through to the mainline would be a formality done to NR standards by contractors. If they cant afford that now, what reason is there to think that 10, or 20, or 30 million pounds is suddenly going to appear just to start-up a commercial passenger operation, let alone cover its initial (or ongoing) losses? It certainly wont be coming from local or national government.

    It also concerns me that i cant remember seeing any kind of estimate of the costs involved; they still havent announced any agreement with Lafarge, their principal source of freight traffic; and i've yet to see any reference to feasibility studies or outside consultants. Not only that, but unless your mistaken one of the principal people behind the project is saying that 'new or nearly new' DMU's would be used - for reasons i've already explained, that doesnt seem credible.

    All in all, talk about reopeing Etruria seems a touch premature!

    Chris
     
  15. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    In other words it is as undercooked as I feared and this may even extend to the freight proposals.

    P.H.
     
  16. N.StaffsNeil

    N.StaffsNeil New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Newcastle under Lyme
    Blimey! That's rained on our parade:redface:
     
  17. Steve from GWR

    Steve from GWR New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2010
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    14
    Don't worry too much about it. Think about all the people who said Tornado would never be built, and that the Bluebell would never open up the cutting, and that 6023 could never be restored........ Some of them are on this forum :)
     
  18. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Nothing is impossible, given sufficient money. The main question is whether the investment is sensible. To my mind the answer in regard to the Moorlands and City project is:- "doubtful".

    The cynic in me recalls the old maxim "that if you make a big enough loss, there is no difficulty in borrowing enough money to make an even bigger and better loss".

    P.H.
     
  19. Thompson1706

    Thompson1706 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2007
    Messages:
    1,984
    Likes Received:
    1,491
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Rhiwabon
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I would think that the necessary track upgrading could be easily done by volunteers to the same quality as by Network Rail contractors, but while taking a lot longer it would be achieved at a sensible price.
     
  20. N.StaffsNeil

    N.StaffsNeil New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Newcastle under Lyme
    Very true. From small acorns great oak trees grow.....
     

Share This Page