More Victorian/Edwardian Steam - The Alternative Way Ahead?

Hello all, having watched the great triumphant return of the T9 into limelight, and the progress of new builds from roughly the same time period (i.e. H2, George The Fifth, D7, G5 & F5 among others), it all got me thinking...

It has often been said that one of the biggest issues our movements faces is the ever ageing steam locomotives, and lack of more practical types of engines for general passenger services. The youngest BR Standard engines are at least over 50 years old now, and a large portion of engines we do have are medium to large size types, which aren't the most appropriate or practical. Of course new builds are often viewed as a way forward, certainly practical ones, such as the new BR Class 3 tank engine being built at the SVR. These are a great way forward but they tend not to be as attractive to the general public, nor do they appear to be necessarily adding anything new to the stable of locomotives we have preserved.

This is why I'd propose that perhaps an alternative option would be to look at building more pre-grouping designs, like George The Fifth or the G5, in particular designs of the late victorian and edwardian period.

It's around this period that locomotive designs had developed to a point were they could do very respectable performances, yet were still relatively simple in construction and assembly. This would be a big bonus for anyone building one, most likely being notably cheaper and more straight forward in construction then some of theses more complicated and bigger locos.

Certainly their attractiveness wouldn't hurt in the modern age, drawing in much attention, whether small or large. True some of the locomotives back then wouldn't really be practical now, but there are many I'd argue would. Most were generally medium to small sized locos, yet still boast ample power and, with the benefits of the advancements in technology, could perform better, and be more practical and efficient then ever before. All of this while keeping their compact size and striking looks.

Does this idea sound genuinely good to you or is it bit foolish, to down right just crazy? Discuss away...!

 

Thing is are you talking about genuine replicas of old locomotives with all the faults and high overheads of that era, or are you talking about what would essentially be brand new designs with a superficial vintage appearance? I suppose one could talk to Bluebell folk about pitfalls since the Dukedog is as reasonable an example of a late victorian/edwardian design with updates (superheater/belpaire firebox/piston valves) as one could hope to find.

 

I suppose my proposal would be more focused on following the overall same design yes, but change certain aspects that can be/need to be changed, such as roller bearings and use of more stronger, more modern materials in it's construction. This would be particularly useful for the frame assembly, as there many design that were notorious for not having that strong of frames, for example the D7 Class.

Of course I like to point out this isn't a topic exclusively for new builds, but also already existing ones too, such as the grand T9 Greyhound and the much missed City of Truro. The NRM has many of these fine machines in their possession that could be put to good use on many heritage railways, the Bluebell Railway for instance I'm sure would love to get their hands on the SECR D Class if they could. Certainly it would be much more appropriate for the line then the Dukedog, though I mean no offence to it, as the old Earl is a fine example of the sort of late victorian/edwardian design that would be very useful and attractive now in the modern age.

 

Here's a query for you all, what late victorian/edwardian locomotives do you think would be quite useful now? And as a extra, where you'd think they'd be most suited/useful to run?

The 4-4-0 D class, or the much talked new build K class mogul for the Bluebell? Perhaps another Drummond design, new build loco for the Swanage Railway and their M7?

 

Which Drummond design? A "Black Motor" would be quite a useful little engine and the D15s were, by all accounts, pretty impressive performers. If anyone dreams of creating a new-build Drummond 4-6-0, they were fine looking machines but lousy performers.....

.....so it would need more than roller bearings and stronger frames to make a success of an F13, G14 or even the best of the bunch, the T14.

 

My knowledge is only really of the GWR types. Im happy to be corrected by the chaps at the Bluebell who know better, but I wonder if double frames create complications that are best avoided - if nothing else in construction expense. So really one has a limited choice. The better small Armstrong and Dean tank classes are duplicated by the Collett and Hawksworth classes that replaced them and were better engineered and easier to maintain. So in practical terms that leaves us with the Dean Goods. I suppose some of the absorbed types as upgraded with GWR boilers might be interesting. There was a project to build an MSWJR 2-6-0 at the Swindon and Cricklade, but that doesn't appear to be making progress.

 

Be nice to see some of the 2-4-0s running.

 

I second the suggestion of a Drummond 700 "Black Motor". It would probably be tough enough for normal service on the MHR with 4 or 5 coaches. However, I'd rather see a programme of replica carriage building. Fine though BR Mk1s are, the real gap in many preserved lines' rolling stock is pre-1950 coaches, and especially pre-1920. You might also get rather more "effect" for each £1000 raised.

 

A Black Motor did cross my mind, but a D15 is definitely what I would go for, fine handsome machine and the very best of Drummond's designs too. Would make a great sight on any of the southern heritage lines. Though a S11 class would be good too, being essentially a T9 with smaller wheels and a slightly larger boiler, thereby being better suited to more testing gradients and overall heavier train loads.

I was never suggesting that roller bearings and strengthening frames would be the only things you'd have to improve to make them a success, merely just a couple examples. Certainly there are some old designs that would need more looking solving known issues more then others, but that's nothing really beyond what a prototypical new build project would do anyway.

And put simply, I'm sure I don't need everyone that some long lost classes are probably best left in the history books...

 

I must confess to having a GWR new build idea, even if one of late victorian/edwardian origin, simply because we've already got so many GWR new builds as it is.

Plus if I'm completely honest, I'd argue we've got more then enough Swindon products as it is.

 

Who'd fancy one of these pulling out of Swanage or Horsted Keynes then? Just to give those who aren't familiar with what engines were talking about.

D15 Class


Or one of these?

S11 Class


And just keep things fair, here's a humble good engine too...

700 Class

 

Something for the Churnet Valley perhaps...



It's a great shame the NSR did so poorly in preservation, I'd be delighted to see the NRM's New L pulling those knotty coaches...

Whilst I'd love to have some older cosching stock around, the problems are threefold. For a start, they aren't as exciting as a loco and won't attract as much money. Then there's the fact that they will almost certainly be wooden and many railways don't have the facilities to protect wooden carriages so extra cost for an even less exciting carriage shed (although the Bluebell has managed to ake a carriage shed an exciting prospect, so full credit to them for that!) Finally, they are unlikely to be recreating something lost; say if the GWSR wanted some heritage GWR coaches - more than likely they'd end up being very similar to those on the SVR. Even if there aren't any others, once you've built the first the next few for a rake are no longer "one of a kind".

 

Ooh lovely... This engine's a good example of one that could be recreated and useful, and though I realise most of the engines I've put forward are southern in origin, theres plenty of other locomotives form many other companies that would make great candidates.

 

I quite agree. There is the photo angle i.e., a pre-1948 liveried loco hauling Mk 1 stock doesn't look right, but more important, the older coaches are much more enjoyable to travel in. I always make a bee-line for older stock (if there are any) whenever I travel on a heritage line. Furthermore, even if the loco on the front of the train is in BR livery, many of today's preserved railways never saw corridor Mark 1 stock in the pre-preservation era. The challenge is to raise the money to build such stock. I suspect that it might prove harder than raising money for new-build locos, but would be very pleased to be proved wrong. Perhaps the A1SLT might like to be the pioneers again, with a rake of coaches looking from the outside and inside like LNER teaks but structurally adapted so as to be suiable for main line running?

 

It does seem strange (well to me) that no one has thought about making new carriages from designs of old carriages. Look at the Midland Pullmans, they were good looking. Maybe lead to getting 1000 overhauled perhaps?! (Fat chance do I hear you all say?!)
I love pre grouping locos, they look gorgeous due to their design brasswork and see shame that many didn't make it past the big four era.
To make a new carriage surely would only be a fraction of the cost of a new locomotive but I do agree that, to many people, it does not seem to be as interesting as the loco that hauls the stock. There is some irony there though. Without the coaching stock you couldn't ride behind the loco!!!
I agree with other comments regarding keeping any coaching stock under cover. Several railways have little to no cover for the carriages and our weather has a habit of being rather wet! However I would personally love to read in some of the old carriages if we had some. Make a change from mk 1 stock. Which reminds me, must try and ride the Knotty train sometime soon.
I think that is also another reason why I love the charm of the Talyllyn Railway with their original four wheelers and riding behind the locos too. A complete train to enjoy.

 

Coaches are the poor relation as far as most preservation societies are concerned, to many a MK1 was a ready to run bums on seats vehicle, where as a pre grouping , or big 4 era coach was a restoration project so was put to one side, most were departmental so stripped of much of their interiours, i would love to see a rake of ironclads with a D15 at the head.
One very good point about earlier locos was that a lot shared common parts, for instance a 700 and T9 shared the same boiler, , So using an generic size of boiler, Cylinders and motion you could re create several types for instance, if you had all the parts cast to build a 4-4-0, you could build it as any one you wanted as much is detail diffences, such as cab shape and Splashers, tenter tank etc, it may not be exactly correct, but if it looked right and was significantly the same size as the original.who would notice?

 

Plenty of rivet counters out there. Plus you would need to advertise to get the money in and there might be many who decide not to donate as it isn't right. I think I might even be one, though I have my own reasons for not donating to new builds now.

 

The GCR 567 Locomotive Project is engaged in building a new 567. The design has been improved in a number of simple but beneficial aspects. The original design suffered from frame weakness as a result of the design of the installation of the cylinder block, this has been addressed in the revision of the design, together with incorporation of an energy absorption zone behind the front buffer beam to provide some measure of protection for the front of the frame from impacts that alas seem all too common in heritage railway operation. The inclusion of these features together with manganese liners on driving axle horns and blocks does not alter the external appearance of the locomotive. The new boiler design has a working pressure of 180 PSI, about the limit of what lubrication technology can cope with in slide valves, again unseen but beneficial. In terms of performance, the new locomotive will exceed the performance of the original 567 which was in any case capable of front line express train work in its heyday. In heritage railway operation, the new loco will be able to do pretty much what City of Truro has shown it can do, as a benchmark for comparison. It wont be superheated, little advantage other than some economy, great saving in terms of simplification and therefore cost. The construction of the frame is much simpler than say the Standard 3, indeed it bears a direct comparison to such robust and long lived machines at the Austerity 0-6-0. The project has been funded to date by subscription, which is open to all. Subscribers are kept informed of the progress on the project in advance of any press statements, an important principle that we have established, to give those generous people some special return for their investment.

 

I know it's not from the right time period, but I wish an H16 tank had survived. I think they would have been pretty good for most preserved lines, and they were certainly different!