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Paignton and Dartmouth Railway

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by tuffer5552, Sep 11, 2007.

  1. tuffer5552

    tuffer5552 Member

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    Now, please could you enthusiasts tell us here at the P+DSR how we can improve it for you!

    But before you start the rant let me lay down a few ground rules...

    1. The liveries will not be re-authenticated, i.e. coaches will always be named, as will tank engines, and be over lined!
    2. Paignton Station is a dump but watch this space.
    3. Lineside photo passes, i cant see them appearing really, not until the pigs are ready to fly and harnessed up!

    But lets see what you got please, it is one of our failings, to provide for the enthusiast, it is such a beautifal line with more beautifal photo oppurtunities per mile than probably any other line.
    Now its your turn...
     
  2. NDTSDN

    NDTSDN Part of the furniture

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    I will start:

    Semaphore Signals
     
  3. tuffer5552

    tuffer5552 Member

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    Now that is a contentious one, the reason we handle so many mainline charters so easily is because we prove to the Big Railway that we can do it, so we make it look very proffessional, maybe churston platform signals could be done but would be motorised. The reason that the line went to colour light signals was so that the entire line could be run from Brittannia Signal Box, which must be manned for the crossing, but thanks.
     
  4. southyorkshireman

    southyorkshireman Resident of Nat Pres

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    I have only visited the line once, but my main observation was (I'm not sure if its still the case) the inability to pay for tickets via cards. I'm not sure the reasoning for this, but you must be one of the few lines that don't if this is still the case!



    Speaking of your many mainline charters, how does the P&D control trains going on and off the line, if I may be permitted to be my usual nosey self, as long as this is info you don't mind giving a basic description of?
     
  5. PhotoMatt

    PhotoMatt Well-Known Member

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    You're very right, the PDSR is a great line (photographically its one of the best).....but it is aimed soley at the tourist market. I appreciate that tourists are a huge income stream, but you could do more to tap into the enthusiast market.

    Visiting locos, maybe a gala (could be out of peak season) the enthusiast market is a great income stream that could be tapped into. Thanks for opening the dialogue.

    (I also experienced the problem with credit card, also I don't recall a rover ticket being available).
     
  6. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Seconded, also events like 1940's weekend's could possibly provide extra income in spring/autumn.

    Loco's not in use on a certain day generally seem to be hidden away, i know Health & Safety cane be a pain where this is concerned, but knowing a certain loco is parked in the shed at Paignton but with no way of seeing it can be frustrating.

    Glad to see your interested in our opinions.
     
  7. David Ward

    David Ward Well-Known Member

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    If you are intent on keeping the inauthentic liveries- which is fair enough they are your toys after all, how about bringing in guest engines for enthusiasts events that are in authentic condition? Say a gala every year out of season when the normal holliday maker visitors are not about, could well bring in lots of custom to the area- just like the WSR does for Minehead out of season. Also perhaps it wouldn't be too much effore to unbolt the nameplates just for one weekend? Just imagine say a castle, hall, 51XX prairie and another manor for example withthe home fleet on the line! Think of the possible double headers. I'm sure that would draw people in.............

    Added to your comment about Paignton being a dump- I'd say the same about Goodrington.........
     
  8. James

    James Part of the furniture

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    Uh...rant...heh...umm.

    I'm not entirely sure of the merits of deliberately doing something blatantly wrong livery-wise. Normals won't know the difference, but enthusiasts will be grumpy and won't visit, so you do lose out that way, so maybe dismissing it straight away isn't the best way to tap a new market? It's not that hard to get it right after all.

    General historical accuracy (not rivet-counting) is an important goal for even a "tourist" railway, as everyone wants to experience that illusion of travelling to a bygone era, so things such as colour-light signalling are bound to jar, but I respect that you need such systems to keep NR happy. My biggest bugbear with "tourist" as opposed to "heritage" railways is that many little things are allowed to impinge on the "old-fashioned" atmosphere that could so easily be avoided, such as modern signs, lighting, platform furniture, or giant plastic bins! This doesn't really apply to the P&DSR for the most part...Kingswear and the intermediate stations are absolute gems, although, yes, Paignton is a dump, the building's ugly (reminiscent of BR's soul-less *I've forgotten the name of the design...like East Grinstead* designs), and that blue arch screams tourist tack! Of course, even heritage railways get it wrong: just look at the hideous brick paving of Alresford MHR's car park...it totally ruins the feel of the place.

    So, after all that...the things that are wrong you already know about, so you're doing pretty well as it is! :lol:

    Galas and rover tickets would be a good way to attract enthusiasts, but once again, glaring inaccuracies in the "look"...i.e. liveries...will put them off, no matter how many beautiful photo opportunities you have...you can't really win here! 8-[

    As for credit cards...can you really not accept them? This is a very serious issue and must lose you a considerable amount of custom. You really must get Chip & Pin machines into your booking offices, shops etc...staying in the "steam age" with regards to payment is one thing you cannot afford!

    p.s. I just found pictures of Goodrington...that is awful! Worse than Paignton even! What a contrast with the other end of the line...
     
  9. littlenobby

    littlenobby Well-Known Member

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    if the locos are going to be over-lined, why not put them in lined BR livery? that way they will be authentic!!! (except the 52xx)
     
  10. KHARDS

    KHARDS Well-Known Member

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    Everyone seems in agreement pretty much;

    * Run a gala
    * Sort out Goodrington
    * Try to make out of use engines visible
    * Little things (bins, seats, signs) make a difference.
     
  11. sturdon

    sturdon New Member

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    B.C is hoping that work will start on the re-vamping of Paignton station before he retires next year. As I understand it, talks have been going on with Torbay council for a number of years, regarding the old cinema. B.C wants to use the downstairs as a new booking office and shop.

    The only station on the line that looks reasonable is Churston, which is run by a group of volunteers (who look to be all past retirement age).

    The last gala held on the line was a Diesell one some 7-8 years ago, which was organised by Andy Matthews who is now with the S.D line.
    At the moment B.C. would not get involved with anything that is not 100% profitable. I am sure B.C. could afford to bring in a guest loco: of the peak season.
    There may be a change of direction when the new general manager takes over next year.
     
  12. Mighty Mogul

    Mighty Mogul Well-Known Member

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    Realistically, I can't see the colour light signals and iffy loco liveries changing, unfortunately.

    The scenery would be appealing for photo charters, but the limiting factor is the coaching stock. Names on the coaches notwithstanding, chocolate and cream Mk1s are only authentic to a very small number of WR express passenger locomotives. I can't remember there being much in the way of freight stock either?

    An out of season enthusiasts could be a good idea though. The mainline connection could perhaps be used to bring in some of the big hitters from the mainline steam fleet (6024, 6201, 71000 etc etc). Maybe this could work in a similar way to the WSR where locos come in on railtours, justifying the movement costs.
     
  13. Dan Hamblin

    Dan Hamblin Part of the furniture

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    The canopies at Kingswear station could really do with a lot of TLC - otherwise in about 10 years I reckon they will have corrosded so much that they will have to be removed.

    Apart from that I agree with all of the above points, especially the need to show off the locos that are not in steam that day, I would even class the out of use diesel traction in that as well.

    Perhaps open up the workshops on advertised days in the tourist season?

    Regards,

    Dan
     
  14. stepney60

    stepney60 Nat Pres stalwart

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    TBH the loco liveries is not important. What matters is the PDSR continues to restore steam engines and run them for the public, just as it is at any line in the country
     
  15. ady

    ady Well-Known Member

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    The GWR used moterised semaphore signals when they where installing some eletric frames, I think Didcot and Birmingham Snow Hill had them.

    It that not possible then why not GWR style colour lights. These worked in the same way as the semaphores, one light which was green when clear and changed to red...etc. None of these have been represented in presevation so far, (although Didcot may install them).

    The liveries don't bother me in the slightest, I think 5239 looks better in its lined livery then the plain black or green. The names on the coaches do worry me but it helps tap in the the mind of the tourst as they can say they travelled on 'such and such' coach.

    A display area for engines not in service would be nice. Maybe a small display about the history of the railway and engines could be a way forward. A gala with a large engine, a big train and the steep enbankments could be enjoyable.

    the thought occurs to me that you have 6435, and some BR built auto-trailers are on the line. would it be possible for a restoration of a GWR auto-train? However problom with that you be compeating with other schemes...

    Kingswear sounds if that could do with a little TLC. As far as I can tell, the train shed there is the last in Devon still standing over rails, the only other one is Ashburtons which still stands as a road grarge. Others have been demolsihed.
     
  16. Stu in Torbay

    Stu in Torbay Part of the furniture

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    Brilliant. Someone from the railway, asking what we all think.

    First of all. It is a superb line in a fantastic location, optimum length, NR connection, good destinations, decent gradients, so all in all, it has much potential.

    Colour signalling, well, its done, and existed on BR in steam days. OK not GWR. Perhaps some non-operational semaphores in certain locations?

    So, the ideas for improvement.

    1. Most other lines websites are good, and even the 'new' P&DSR one is poor in comparison. the web is more and more important for advertising these days. Take a look at other good-sized line's websites for ideas.

    2. Open up the facilities a bit - sheds at Churston/Paignton - even just a viewing gallery and information boards on what is having what done to it would be good.

    2a - Wasnt going to mention liveries, but I agree with others PLEASE dont dismiss it, especially that dark brown panda-eyes look around the coach windows - so easy to sort out....

    3. Dining trains - why get rid of your dining set? Was it making a loss? if so, was it promoted properly?

    4. Driver experience courses - people pay a lot of money for them.

    5. Themed events, like 1940s, rail & Ale, Fish and chip specials, Devon cream tea specials, galas (steam and diesel)

    6. Add more special trains during regatta week - Well done for adding another train on Red Arrows night this year, but you could have filled another 1 or 2 (The first went early as it was full!) And, crime of the century - THEY WERN'T ON THE WEBSITE!!!

    7. Aparrently a fence is too close to the 'table at Churston to allow longer locos to turn (6102, 6233....), can this be sorted?

    8. Steam in the winter - IF advertised properly might work on selected weekends?

    9. Mainline tours - well done on that front. I wrote to BC in the early '90s sending an article from a rail mag in showing how a visit to another line by 6024 was a great success, and how it might be great for the P&DSR - since then visits have been quite regular. Not saying my letter did it, but good to see it. - By the way, is there even a remotest talk of mainline certification for any loco and running to Torquay/Newton?

    10. Opportinities for volunteers. Other than churston Station there isn't much. You might find some of these extra things possible if you built up a team of volunteers, but we will only come if welcomed and encouraged.

    I think thats it for now! - by and large, its a good line, friendly staff, engines turned out in superb condition (both 5239 and 7827 look excellent)- but SO MUCH un-tapped potential.

    One question that has been puzzling me. Why did you re-lay the UP road through Goodrington Sta? to allow 3 trains in steam? And what is the new 'avoiding loop' at Goodrington for (what with the new up line in place as well?)

    Thanks Tuffer.
     
  17. 1420bulliver

    1420bulliver New Member

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    OK, this is a good sign to see, i've come up with a general list both for tourists and enthusiasts:

    1st. Loco liveries/names dont bother me in the slightest except please put Ajax back into GWR shirtbutton livery!!

    2nd. same with Signals so what they coloured lights,

    3rd. coach liveries - the new version looks stupid espically on the DMU triallers, if the board want to keep the coporate look why not go back to basics, and paint them all into original Dart valley livery of GWR Hawksworth style chocolate and cream with P&DSR lettered on the sides. (same livery as the SDR has adopted for their dinning train) or BR (W) choclate and cream with a logo instead of the BR badge like WSR / GWSR - I know that the names work for smaller kids but you are losing potential money from photo charters. and why no Buffet car, is the bar still in the devon belle from its days in buckfastliegh? if so use it!

    4th. Galas - why not have a opening gala at the start of the season next year (easter bank holiday?) with all of the home fleet including the diesels, demo goods, churston - kingswear shuttles?. A bit of a cambrian branch line affair? Manor, 64xx, golitath - not correct but still a welsh engine , the 25, 03, 08. try it small at 1st make sure the enthusiasts now about it and then let it grow over the years with visiting engines? - open dayswith access to the engine shed and workshops

    5th. dont cock up paignton, proper good quality facilities for the public, proper shop inc. a model shop?, a tidy cafe/bar or even resturant - like in kidderminster, conference facilities?, museum?

    6th. Sort out who the hell you are, Dart valley railway, dart rail, P&DSR, T&DSR, river link, paignton steam railway, who are you pick one and stick to it, make sure the public know that the railway and riverlink is one company!

    7th. Get rid of the stupid handwritten posters from the stations!!! - spend money on marketing for both tourists and enthusiasts.

    8th. 1 web site for the railway and river link, allow online booking??

    9th. make more of the dartmouth regatta, go down the eco line, 1 train load takes away how many cars?? - more trains - greater frequency day and night.

    10th. Diesel days use Hercules more!!! - ask preserved-diesels forum would they visit - i've known people from other forums who go to the thomas gala as its the only weekend of the year that the 25 is booked to work.

    11th. Team up with the torbay steam fair - park and ride shuttles between goodrington and churston with bus link to the site (when the loop in goodrington is complete)

    12th Sundowner nights - they worked in the 70's/80's bring them back - i know this year you did a few with a river cruise but give visitors a choice, with or without the boat!
    more daytrip options? i.e. sunset specials on the WSR

    13th work with the local holiday camps like paignton zoo do, offer discounts for families from these parks, biggest marketing opportunity, you run through waterside, and you cant avoid the railway from Hoburne torbay, use these markets to your advantage,

    14th Summer hire engine a big namer, that will draw the enthusiasts in like in the past with flying scotsman, and king edward.

    The foundations for a market leading GWR/BR(W) railway are there don't waste this opportunity to sort the railway out for the future and do it now not in 20 years time.
     
  18. This is a great idea, to ask people what they would like to see and ditto to all that Stu has said!

    Plus, If you need someone to revamp your website FOC, get in touch. It would be a pleasure.

    FC
     
  19. 34007

    34007 Part of the furniture

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    Hi Fireboxchaser. What software have you used to design your website?
     
  20. Hi

    Used Frontpage in the main with other software to create navigation.

    FC
     

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