If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Project Wareham

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by David R, Jul 31, 2015.

  1. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    9,956
    Likes Received:
    9,614
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Many operators seem to differentiate between 'bike bikes' and folding bikes. Any idea please whether that's true of those you mention?
     
  2. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2015
    Messages:
    3,551
    Likes Received:
    2,817
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Swanage
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    One of the shop keeperes tried to organise a scheme where the couriers all delivered to a central point and someone distributed them around Purbeck
    One of the shop keepers tried to organise a scheme where the couriers all delivered to a central point and someone distributed them around Purbeck. He could not find even one willing to engage just to discuss it. It is not hard to understand why really the industry has moved on from some BR guy chucking parcels to and from a Brute trolley. Companies would not be responsible for the whole process, leading to arguments over where loss or damage occurred. Plus many now send delivery time messages, difficult if you do not own the whole process.
    Mind you our Hermes courier told me he had 180 parcel drops last Friday (a month where people apparently spend less post Christmas), and there is at least one other Hermes courier in Swanage I know and I think there may be yet another as well. Add up all the courier drops and that will be a significant load everyday.
    Whilst accepting Swangage is not LA, this does little for parcels by rail.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-60006306

    For those who think that councils have control over their local rail services, I came across this at the weekend. It may be well known, but was news to me

    https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/article...rk-station-in-east-london-50831/?nowprocket=1
     
  3. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    4,465
    Likes Received:
    2,527
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The Swanage Railway has evolved - it has become a tourist attraction with an important secondary purpose of providing an attractive park and ride facility for Swanage. The railway was relaid by enthusiasts and I'm willing to bet that those who just wanted to see it return to provide commuter services did very little to assist. Comparing it with the Okehampton line etc. is a meaningless exercise as these other lines do not run heritage services nor were they rebuilt from scratch by supporters. Thoughts of transporting goods over the short length of this branch are even more pie in the sky - will the rest of the rail network suddenly join them to provide a meaningful service?

    You ask whether the Swanage branch will survive as a six mile, steam only, railway? Why shouldn't it? It has done very well over the years in growing from a short line in Swanage station limits to the mainline connected line it has become. That main line connection will undoubtedly help it to thrive, but it doesn't have to be used as a commuter line (unless there is an overwhelming desire to return it to being a lightly loaded branch all year round. Personally I prefer to see it as a bustling tourist attraction for most of the year than a commuter line where the tumbleweed blows by for much of the day.
     
    Shaggy, johnofwessex, 35B and 3 others like this.
  4. oliversbest

    oliversbest Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2011
    Messages:
    624
    Likes Received:
    107
    Let us see what uptake there is for a"connecting service". It was the political acumen and will of the pioneers that enabled the SRP to save the route intact so that reconnection could eventually take place,as envisaged by them. I do not think DCC have invested the money that they have without wanting to see some community benefit.
     
  5. 5944

    5944 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2006
    Messages:
    6,509
    Likes Received:
    4,399
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Train Maintainer for GTR at Hornsey
    Location:
    Letchworth
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Who exactly is the service trying to attract? The few people commuting to Bournemouth will either stay in their cars if they're worried about time, or on the buses if they're worried about cost. Holiday makers would rather go by car - there's nothing worse than trying to cart your luggage about while changing trains if you can just throw it in the boot of your car.

    Shoppers? Again, car or bus will take you door to door essentially.

    Any school traffic? The Esk Valley line carries a lot of children during term time, but it's subsidised by the councils. Any schools nearby that need lots of children brought in from elsewhere?

    That basically leaves day trippers. Will there be enough passengers to cover the costs of the services? The trials with locos and stock were quite busy, but with enthusiasts and people doing it for the novelty factor. Enough to sustain it? I doubt it, even with lower operating costs of the DMU.
     
    MellishR likes this.
  6. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    15,491
    Likes Received:
    9,557
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    What is the daily additional cost to the SR, to the DMU running Swanage to Norden extending to Wareham ? I'm assuming a lot of the cost setting up the service have already been factored in, ,If the guard can issue tickets on the train, how many passengers will be needed to break even per day over the extended service ?
    As long as this number is met, and the train crews are passed to operate to Wareham, then hopefully the railway shouldn't have too many problems, alternately, if the numbers are low, use the single railcar, on a Wareham to Corffe Castle shuttle only running a limited service, just a few times a day.
     
    Morris_mad likes this.
  7. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    9,956
    Likes Received:
    9,614
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Access charges, for one.
     
  8. 80104

    80104 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2020
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    173
    Location:
    a small town in germany
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The ones that spring readily to mind apart from the diesel, lubricants, and dmu maintenance are the track access charges, station access charges, increased insurance premiums for operating on the mainline.

    Presumably provision must be made for the overhaul of the DMUs at some point in time in the future.
     
  9. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    9,956
    Likes Received:
    9,614
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    .... to full mainline standards, don't forget. That adds a few bob more to a bog standard heritage DMU overhaul..
     
  10. 80104

    80104 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2020
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    173
    Location:
    a small town in germany
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Yes exactly.

    IMHO Project Wareham has three "dimensions" (for want of a better word).

    Dimension 1: Are the technical / operational elements of operating a service to / from Wareham bearing in mind this means a small amount of mainline running. (Within this I include the much greater compliance requirements for running on the mainline.)

    Dimension 2: Is the financial (and commercial) dimension ie the revenues (demand) and costs of operating a service to / from Wareham again bearing in mind not just the additional revenue and costs of a longer journey but the additional costs incurred purely by mainline running e.g. the higher insurance costs. Some of these costs are fixed (or near fixed) and some are variable.

    Dimension 3: Is the political dimension. Not just the political dimension of govt (national and local) of transport policy but also that of DC as landlord / freeholder of the trackbed (most) and Swanage Town Council as landlord / freeholder of the remaining trackbed and Swanage Station. There is of course the 2014 lease agreement which lays down obligations on both parties DC and SRT but principally on SRT. There is also the "political" dimension of the long stated objectives of the SRT and the aspirations / willingness of the SRT members and volunteers to operate this service.

    These three dimensions overlap and create the unique situation that SRT SRC faces today.

    IMHO the demand for rail to / from wareham is limited. Yes some demand from day trippers in the summer (first down, last up) which would probably cover the direct operating costs and some of the fixed costs but unlikely to cover total cost especially given that the DMUs are effectively employed solely for the purposes of running a service to wareham. Any shortfall would have to be funded either subsidised by SRT SRC other activities or by DC. I do not think that that any other form of service i.e. year round commuter or year round community would be viable. This would need considerable revenue support. Whether DC in furtherance of their wider public transport objectives would choose to fund this is very much the $64K question. If they did decide to do so, then the unanswered questions would be who would / could do so (and at what cost) and what the impact would be on the heritage rail operations of SRT SRC not just financially and operationally but also emotionally and psychologically on the volunteers.
     
    Shaggy and MellishR like this.
  11. jamesd

    jamesd Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Messages:
    481
    Likes Received:
    194
    Location:
    Llanharan, S Wales
    I imagine it will go something like this - the trials will take place, they will be evaluated and all parties will agree it doesn't really make financial sense to continue and that a regular service to Wareham is not sustainable. The Swanage will then be left to carry on as it is now but with a fully signalled mainline connection and a couple of mainline ready, fully operable DMU's. The connection will be used as it is now for charters etc and the Swanage will be able to run occasional services over the extension as it does now. That doesn't sound too bad to me?

    As for the £3m and DCC, I guarantee they will have already forgotten about that.
     
  12. 80104

    80104 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2020
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    173
    Location:
    a small town in germany
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    If that is the outcome then IMHO that would be, as they say, a result.

    Where such an outcome would leave the Purbeck Community Rail Partnership who knows?(as much of their raison detre would be lost).
     
  13. Jupiter

    Jupiter New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    Dorset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    ^ This.

    Let’s face it, it isn’t really commuter-line material and certainly not commuter-line only.

    The railway would seem to benefit the largest number of people if it’s a “bustling tourist attraction”. Good turn of phrase.

    Personally I’d like to see four runs to Wareham a day and only when steam is running. Two in the morning for down passengers and two in the afternoon for up passengers. The first being quite early, before the first steam and the last being quite late, after the last steam. Four or five days a week would be suitable. Only two cycles a day would have to work in with the steam timetable, boxes would be manned a bit longer on those days and the train crew pool would need to be a little deeper but I don’t see this as over-ambitious.
     
  14. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,343
    Likes Received:
    1,583
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ynysddu south wales
    I have no involvement in matters at Swanage, but it has always appeared to me that running onto the mainline and to Wareham was always going to be a non starter.

    Obviously, beneficial, probably for occasional charter trains and having a mainline connection, but the question is how Dorset County Council and the Swanage Railway get out of a mess (that does not include the money spent by Network Rail that I think we can probably pass on).

    The only thing I can think of is to hand over to the ownership of the DMU set to Dorset County Council to sell.
     
  15. M59137

    M59137 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,195
    Likes Received:
    1,666
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Carriage & Wagon
    Location:
    Sheringham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Not ideal if there is regular DMU use on the "domestic" section of SR. In the past the resident DMU sets clocked high mileages. It will be interesting to see if the railway, who has managed without any DMU's for a few years now, will a) return to the mid 2010's DMU usage or b) stick to how they've operated in the few years before Covid and reserve the DMU's for exclusive mainline use to preserve the wear and tear.

    Sent from my moto g(8) power using Tapatalk
     
  16. Alan Kebby

    Alan Kebby Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2019
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    945
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brighton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I can’t see the current DMUs being overhauled again. When the time comes, it would probably make more sense to buy some Sprinters instead, which might then be available.

    A provision would still be required for purchase cost though.
     
  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    9,956
    Likes Received:
    9,614
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Why buy Sprinters when there's a fair chance of being given Pacers?

    ..... I'll just get my coat .....
     
  18. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    15,491
    Likes Received:
    9,557
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Could the responsibility to operate a service as far as say Corfe be transferred another operator such as SWR In the same way was they ran a limited service in the past rather than falling on the SR If it's found to be uneconomic to operate .
     
  19. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    5,872
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    My view for what its worth would be for SWT to run a Summer Holiday & some weekends excursion from Salisbury via Southampton to Swanage with a working to Wareham or two during the layover.

    And yes, I know its not viable

    I suggest that COVID gives everyone a 'Get out of jail free' card
     
  20. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    22,978
    Likes Received:
    45,004
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    If it is uneconomic to operate, why should SWR be made to do so? (And where would they get stock from - presumably something would have to make a trip from Salisbury each day just to run it, and at a time when SWR have been cutting diesel services around here due to shortage of crews caused by Covid).

    Trying to mix a commercial and a tourist service on a line subject to a 25mph speed limit, with labour-intensive signalling requirements and against competition from buses with free travel for the over 65s is never going to work. Far more sensible to ensure that the SR remains what it is today, which is a successful heritage operation. I can't see why you want to jeopardise that operation.

    TOm
     
    Shaggy, 35B and Bluenosejohn like this.

Share This Page