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propelling

Discussion in 'Railway Operations M.I.C' started by rough-shunter, Jan 10, 2008.

    as i understand it is highly illeagel to propell a train but i know of a short line that does this with passengers how do they get arownd this ruling?
     
  1. southyorkshireman

    southyorkshireman Resident of Nat Pres

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    Its not 'illegal' it is just controlled. Local instruction may permit it and a thorough risk assessment and several rainforests will have been used to make sure that even non existant risk has been mitigated.

    Reading elsewhere, propelling with passengers onboard happened the other week at Chester. ECS and freight do it all the time, a lot of ferights would have problems getting into sidings if not

    Also if its a preserved railway basically running as a light railway, it can be easier to permit certain things, for example using a dual braked diesel to act as translator for an air only diesel is fine on a preserved line, but doubt it would be on the big railway
     
  2. gz3xzf

    gz3xzf Member

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    Also places with short demonstration lines, like Didcot, simply run the train with out running round (normally only 2 or 3 coaches). They have a man looking out the back end using a specially designed corridor end that has a brake setter and a window. This person is there to apply the brake in case of a problem.

    In the eighties rail tours running through Banbury used to use the down loop platform (I think it is platform 1) for water from a hydrant in the middle of the platform. Down trains would run into the platform and back into the sidings until the loco was opposite the hydrant. Up trains would run through the station on the up line and then propel the train into the down loop. That was always fun!! #-o I don't know what they there now as the Hydrant on the platform as been switched off, last time I was there we used one in the car park; lots of running about with hoses and hydrant gear! ](*,)
     
  3. ovbulleid

    ovbulleid Member

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    the replica engines at beamish pull and propell due to the lack of a run-around, but here it's due to the slow speeds and good visibility in both directions from the engine
     
  4. beetlejuice

    beetlejuice Well-Known Member

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    During the 10th anniversairy of Groombirdge, a diesel shunter sotherham (spl?), was used for short shuttle rides between Groombridge and Birchden. This was at low speed and only with a queen mary brake, which had more than one member on board. I can't quite remember but I think the guard also held out a green flag, not sure though.
     
  5. sigsnguard

    sigsnguard Member

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    Propelling moves are usually covered in your local rule book. Generally only shunt moves without passengers, but in the example of a brake van ride the train is short enough for the driver to be able to see and stop short of any obstruction (an 08 & Queen Mary is not as long as looking along the boiler of a Pacific for example). At Swanage, if we are doing brake van rides then the train brake is always used and a staff member rides in the van to "drop the handle" should an emergency brake application be required.
     
  6. southyorkshireman

    southyorkshireman Resident of Nat Pres

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    The majority I can think of, involve a look out on the back with the ability to apply the brakes.

    Also I am sure that the majority of preserved line operations using this operate one train in steam as well
     
  7. Dave Roderick

    Dave Roderick New Member

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    It was done on service trains on the East Lancs railway before the current phase of signalling had been introduced. Down trains from Heywood used the inner "jubilee" curve and ran through platform 2 at Bury before coming to a stop clear of the signal at the northern end of the tunnel, when a white shunting light would be put in place of the tail lamp. At that time it wasn't possible to enter directly into 3 or 4 from the outer curve as happens now. As the guard I would be at the rear of the train giving directions to the driver by radio. The driver would be informed that the signal was off, which platform was indicated and that the points were set correctly for that road and that the train could now be propelled. The train would then recess into platform 3 to allow the up train coming from Rawtenstall to enter Platform 2. During the movement the instruction "propel" was repeated every 10 seconds to ensure that radio communication had not been lost. Normally the signal on the gantry at the south end of platform 3 should have been cleared for the through siding but if it wasn't then the guard had to ensure that the driver stopped the train before the rear coach passed it.
     
  8. southyorkshireman

    southyorkshireman Resident of Nat Pres

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    wasn't that happening on the 5th last weekend as well?
     
  9. Q1

    Q1 Member

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    Correct.

    Due to the need for further signalling work at Bury South, we can currently only use EITHER the Inner or Outer Curves past the Signalbox. We had been using the Inner Curve during the Santa Special season for the Heywood Shuttle. However, it was not been possible to revert back to the Outer Curve due to the stock in Bolton Street Platform 4. I think there has been a Mega-Shunt this week (Thursday) to clear it and we should be back to using the Outer Curve this coming weekend. This will remove the need for recessing/propelling and remove the delays experienced over last weekend.
     
  10. olly5764

    olly5764 Well-Known Member

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    Propelling is genrally not liked as the footplate crew can't see what is going on at the far end of the train, and as such, there is more potential for problems, how ever, it is not banned, and is often nessesary.
     
  11. P&JR

    P&JR Well-Known Member

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    Whilst it takes some getting used to, if the driver, fireman and guard are all familiar with what is going on and working well together then generally propelling dosn't pose any massive problems.

    Incidentally where is the line drawn between what is considered to be propelling and shunting? We propel stock round the curve onto the mainline for the santas but that's basically just a long shunt as far as I'm concerned... has there ever been a limit written down for something to be considered more than a shunt?
     
  12. hassell_a

    hassell_a Member

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    I would class anything within staion limits as a shunt, and going into/through a block section as propelling. It has been standard practice since the year dot, for an EBV (engine with brake van) to propel over long distances to save running round.

    There are often further local instructions laid down about this sort of thing in the Genaral Appendix.
     
  13. P&JR

    P&JR Well-Known Member

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    Good point about station/yard limits. Hadn't thought of that as an easy definition.
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    You can have 'siding's' that are miles long and it is possible to propel on these. The line from Catleford to Allerton Bywater (about 2 miles at a guess) ended up as asiding at the end and there were no run round facilities. The train, consisting of HAA hoppers was propelled to Allerton and a brake van was kept specially for this work, being the leading vehicle when the train was propelled.

    Push-pull trains are also propelled although I don't think that the original poster was referring to such things.
     
  15. Q1

    Q1 Member

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    The definition of "Propelling" is any movement where the Driver is at the rear of the train in the direction of travel. I cannot recall the exact wording at the moment. In other words, although the loco may be at the rear of a push-pull set in the direction of travel, but the driver is in the front cab controlling the Loco remotely, the train is not being propelled.

    As I understand it, you can propel when shunting, but not the otherway around and shunting is an exercise which re-arranges the formation of a train.

    Please disregard these definitions and refer below for the corrected versions
     
  16. A Grumpy Old Man

    A Grumpy Old Man New Member

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    And how would you define the movement if the engine (with driver) was in the middle of the train?
     
  17. Q1

    Q1 Member

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    ](*,) As I said before - I cannot recall the exact wording at the moment. #-o I just knew I should have kept my fingers off the keyboard. #-o

    However a quick look on the RSSG website provides these definitions for the "Big Railway":

    A propelling movement applies when vehicles which are not capable of self-powered movement are pushed by a traction unit. The traction unit pushing is not in multiple with any of the propelled vehicles. The definition does not include push/pull sets.

    Shunting Movement - Any movement of a train or vehicle other than a train passing normally along a running line.

    Now I suppose I better go and refresh my memory by checking my own Rule Book before any other =D> pedants =D> join in!
     
  18. A Grumpy Old Man

    A Grumpy Old Man New Member

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    Sorry Phil, I wasn't trying to deliberately embarrass you. Railway operation is a defined discipline, at least on the 'Big Railway'. As a retired professional railwayman your previous comment immediately hit me as being incomplete, which is an inexcusable situation when discussing railway safety and operations.

    Jack
     
  19. Q1

    Q1 Member

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    I'm too thick-skinned to be embarrassed! 8-[ I was annoyed with myself because I should have done my research properly before assaulting the keyboard with my two-fingered typing skills to try and clarify the difference between Shunting & Propelling Movements! :-#

    I totally agree with you regarding the "defined discipline" and I should not have used the excuse of "I cannot recall the exact wording at the moment."

    My Rule Book states, " Propelled: A Movement driven from other than the leading end in the direction of travel."

    The definition of Shunting is as above.

    Finally, on reflection, my last line in my previous posting does not read as it was intended. It was supposed to be a further demonstration of my annoyance with myself for jumping in without making sure my wording was spot on.

    So, Jack, it is me who should be, and is, apologising to you.
     

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