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Rother Valley Railway

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by nine elms fan, Nov 4, 2012.

  1. City of truro fan

    City of truro fan New Member

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    This will be a sad thing to happen after all the worm that’s been done. If it did happen though I would chose the gwili railway as they are looking for some and more track will help them aim to conwil. I think the idea of break van rides should be done first as this will save the work that’s been done.
     
  2. Fireline

    Fireline Member

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    I think the original post was a joke.....
     
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  3. SpudUk

    SpudUk Member

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    I know it's become something of a game on NatPres to pile-on 'City of truro fan' recently, but it's not a good look for the heritage railway community or the forum, particularly as his tendency to take things literally suggests a particular vulnerability. If you find his posts frustrating I'd suggest ignoring them, or otherwise try and engage in an encouraging or supportive way like (I'd hope) you would if he were asking these questions in person
     
  4. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Part of the furniture

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    It can be, although I’m not sure at the mo with the current situation? Does the KWVR still run its early Saturday morning trains for those wanting to do a bit of shopping?
    I know my Mum and Dad if they can prefer to use the train to go shopping in Bridgnorth from Bewdley even though jumping in the car or bus is a bit quicker.
     
  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think you really need an accountant to answer that question (and it may vary from railway to railway) since to a degree the answer depends on how the railway handles e.g. VAT on ticket sales; and what range of ticket types they sell, as to whether you are deemed to be "transport" or an "attraction". The numbers of people on the train, or whether Mrs Miggins chooses the train over a local bus to go to the local pie shop, is irrelevant, since those are unquantifiable variations; whereas whether you do or don't charge VAT on tickets is precisely known.

    Tom
     
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  6. cav1975

    cav1975 Member

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    As you say Tom, it is complex.

    There are some HMRC statements here:- https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-transport/vtrans030600

    Partial quote:-

    "Zero-rated passenger transport.
    Where a preserved railway provides a timetabled service between stations at which passengers can board and alight, and the railway is not within a place or entertainment or interest as defined in VTRANS030400, the service is one of passenger transport and is zero-rated. This remains the case where minor additional facilities are supplied in the course of the journey: such facilities are not considered to create a place of entertainment or interest in their own right.

    Examples are:

    • Santa Specials (mince pie, drink, present from Santa);
    • Winter Warmers (soup);
    • Hogmanay Specials (whisky or other alcoholic drink); and
    • Historic Train days where the rolling stock used for transporting passengers is from a particular period. Displays of shunting etc may be given.
    In addition to their usual services, many preserved railways hold special events at stations which may differ widely from year to year. The scale of many of these is minimal and does not prevent any associated transport benefiting from zero-rating. Examples of events which do not create a place of entertainment or interest and allow fares to remain zero-rated are:

    • Thomas the Tank Engine days, where the rolling stock is decorated with character faces and which may include appearances by the Fat Controller, Mrs Kyndley, a Punch and Judy show and clowns;
    • Postman Pat days, where Postman Pat loads mail onto a train; and
    • Behind the Scenes weekends which give customers access to workshops, signal boxes etc.
    This list is not exhaustive.

    Top of page

    Standard-rated passenger transport
    Transport within a place of entertainment or interest
    Passenger transport provided using preserved trains within any of the places of entertainment or interest listed in VTRANS030400 is standard-rated when supplied by the person granting admission to, or the right to use the facilities of, the place of entertainment, or by a person connected with him.

    If the railway is operated within a place of entertainment independent of the person granting admission to, or the right to use the facilities of, the place of entertainment the supply maybe zero-rated as transportation.

    Where such a railway runs in a park for which there is no admission charge, but where the railway is one of many facilities (such as crazy golf, putting, croquet, radio boats etc) for which a single charges is made for use of all the facilities by the person operating the railway that will be a single standard-rate supply.

    “Experiences”
    Some preserved railways provide “experience” events, such as learning to drive a steam train. This type of event will be standard-rate as it is not a supply of transport."

    The full text is available in my link above.

    Nick
     
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  7. Miff

    Miff Well-Known Member Friend

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    As others have said, it might be but there's no requirement that it must be. TWA Orders may be made for 'transport systems' - specifically railways, tramways, trolley & other guided systems. And inland waterways.
     
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  8. jnc

    jnc Part of the furniture

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    I agree with your post generally, but it seemed to me that @Fireline's post (which apparently prompted yours) was genuinely an attempt to dispel a seeming misapprehension.

    Noel
     
  9. Bikermike

    Bikermike Member

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    Well, it matters because statements about prioritising "public transport" over private transport in the cont
    This is why it matters - a road is still public transport that is part of a long-distance network. To suggest a preserved railway is public transport of equivalent importance is special pleading to say the least. And to state it is posturing to prioritise a road over a non-public transport railway is not really giving IMO a fair representation of the position.
     
  10. Fireline

    Fireline Member

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    It was indeed.
     
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  11. Mark Thompson

    Mark Thompson Well-Known Member

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    I had no idea I was stating any such thing, but thanks for the clarification, anyway.
     
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  12. H Cloutt

    H Cloutt Member

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    Documents for the Public Inquiry are appearing on the Inquiry website - there are many recent ones in the 'Proofs of Evidence' section. For the lengthier documents there are statement summaries. No wonder the Inquiry is going to take 3+ weeks.
     
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  13. Dead Sheep

    Dead Sheep New Member

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    Thanks. It certainly has changed as you suggest. There is exhaustive evidence from RVR as to be expected and Highways England acknowledge that work on resolving various matters are ongoing.
     
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  14. Bikermike

    Bikermike Member

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    So what did you think you said then?
     
  15. Mark Thompson

    Mark Thompson Well-Known Member

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    If you read my post again, what I was trying to get across is that road and rail have been political footballs since time immemorial. What may be possible today, with the current "Rolling back Beeching" stance, could not, and was not possible in the era of Barbara Castle. I made no mention of "prioritising". You merely twisted my words, that's all. And many heritage railways are part of the modern national rail map, regardless of their function. Tourism, whether by road or rail, makes money for the local economy. I hope that makes it clearer for you.
     
  16. SpudUk

    SpudUk Member

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    It wasn't @Fireline's post specifically no, his just happened to be the one before mine. More of a general theme across NatPres
     
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  17. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I suppose the agument comes down to who makes the most convincing case, The RVR, or the Objectors, and the pros and cons of who wins out, If the RVR wins out, then i would say more people would be able to take advantage of the re opened stretch of line, as leisure time, visiting the likes of Bodiam Castle, using the train, leaving the car at Roberts bridge, or even arriving by train from further afield, vs one farmer, to carry on as before, and a section of track bed still left in disused state the value to the local community, would be minimal, , Im not decrying the Hoads, i actually respect their position, that the don't want to sell, based on the impact re instatement would make to their business, , i have less respect though for the other land owners who, have done nothing with their land that gives value to it, wild life i would argue, lives alongside heritage railways, very successfully , and even does very well as it opens up green corridoors for all species ,and become an attraction, I wonder how the hoads feel though, when their neibours stretch of track bed attracts deer who eat their growing cereal crop. or insects and grubs , that will do untold damage to growing crops? at least the railway will ensure there is good fencing to keep unwanted animals off their land.
     
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  18. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Member

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    There are many thousands of miles of public roads (comprised of lots of tiny bits) which have no function other than to serve a handful of private homes and which are arguably less important in 'network' terms than, say, a minor railway branch line which may at least serve a whole village.

    The other point to make - I recall a conversation many years ago in which Graham Oliver (then GCR boss) made the point that even cruise ship passengers on a circular itinerary are travellers who are going somewhere. Fundamentally, it doesn't matter why people are travelling; leisure travel (purely for the sake of it) is just as valid as travel for work, etc.; in any case it's impossible to determine what people's individual motivation is and it would be ridiculous to try to tax people differently based on that.

    Going back to the 'tourist railway as public transport' argument, I have personally used the NYMR as public transport (we arrived at Grosmont by train, bought single tickets and then departed Pickering by bus as part of a longer journey) and I'm sure I'm not alone. I've never travelled over the Settle-Carlisle route but if I ever did I can assure you it would be for completely touristic/leisure purposes (even though the line has a public service). So the boundaries are really blurry. But the thread is about the Rother Valley Railway and, assuming it gets built, it will undoubtedly be marketed (as the KESR is) as a handy way to access Bodiam castle, so I am sure it will attract a fair number of people who are essentially using it as transport.
     
  19. William Shelford

    William Shelford New Member

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    In my letter of support for the Rother Valley Railway (Bodiam to Robersbridge Junction) Order, one of my comments is as follows:-

    "The re-opening of the railway back to the main-line at Robertsbridge will allow the railway, Bodiam Castle, Tenterden etc. to be visited without a car. As I get older I am already finding the drive to and from this railway, which involves driving half-way round the M25 tiring, and I look forward to being able to do this by train instead, a journey which at times is just as quick and far more relaxing."

    Visting the K&ESR (as a heritage attraction), Bodiam Castle (another heritage attraction) or Tenterden (for shopping, a good pub lunch etc. etc.) without driving the whole distance from home, can only be done if their is a reliable public transport network to get there and back. Home (where ever it is in the UK) to Robertsbridge is straight forward (even if you need a car or bus to get to a railway station), Robertsbridge to the rest of the K&ESR is not (unless you do not mind a 3 to 4 mile cross country walk) or the hire of taxi. As the later is tiring and/or complicated/expensive (compared to the rest of the journey), one either drives the whole distance or gives up and says at home.

    Each passenger who travels on the K&ESR from Robersbridge (for what ever reason), having come by train is not only reducing traffic on local roads (to Bodiam, Tenterden etc.), but on all the roads and motorways on which they would have driven, over a much wider area.
     
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  20. H Cloutt

    H Cloutt Member

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    There are more and more documents on the Inquiry website setting out the case for and against. There are still some objectors yet to provide their documents. The one thing that struck me is the number of documents submitted by OBJ/1002 [the landowners] which have been produced by consultants. There has clearly been a cost in havng these documents prepared to which would need to be added the cost of their representation and witnesses at the Inquiry.

    Both landowners are presenting a joint case. One assumes that the farmer believes that this cost is justified to prevent the disection of his land. If I was the other landowner I don't think I would see this as cost effective.
     

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