And pre-grouping liveries? Everything has its place, and the odd debate about liveries isn't a bad thing. It is a well tempered debate and makes a change from the usual intensive debates. There is an important point in your first point - that the old days of gentlemens' agreements have long passed and that a change of management means the carpet can be swept from under the feet of anyone at any point in time. However, I do think that the S&DRT-WSR affair has highlighted another problem, that contracts are essentially unenforcible because no one has the resources to actually enforce those breaking contracts to abide by them. So all groups are where they are and all potentially vulnerable (this wider point appears to have been lost).