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'Sensible' New Builds

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by alexl102, Sep 12, 2022.

  1. ady

    ady Well-Known Member

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    well not really they spent most of their lives in superheated form and the most likely railway interested, the Mid Hants and Swanage are mostly kept in Post War conditions, I would thought people would want them in their later configuration.
     
  2. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member

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    Maybe a factor to be considered is the reputation the loco had when it was in traffic?

    Three sensible choices which weren't well regarded would be the Thompson L1 2-6-4 tanks, the LMS Fowler/Stanier class 3 2-6-2 tanks and the Midland Flatiron 0-6-4 tanks all were, by reputation, a bit crap and as a result probably wouldn't get a lot of support as projects
     
  3. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Yes, we have a project to build one but I think the point was to question the value of that project, relative to other actual or possible projects.
     
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  4. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    There's a charge I've heard before .... beyond the sort of adhesion issues you might expect with an 0-6-4T, are there any specific issues known with the 'Flatirons'?

    IIRC, wasn't the issue with the Fowler/Stanier 2-6-2T designs (neither bad looking locos to my eye) were down to 'front end' design? Since that can cover a multitude of sins, is anyone aware of actual details?
     
  5. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Looking purely at operational needs, that is clearly absolutely correct; but over the last few years considerations other than operational needs have strongly influenced where money and volunteer effort have been directed. Perhaps we will see a refocussing towards overhauls (as with the Bluebell's Atlantic team) and towards other important but less glamorous projects, like buildings to house the stock in (again, as with developments on the Bluebell).
     
  6. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member

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    The 0-6-4 tanks were bad riders and prone to derailment. The 2-6-2 tanks were poor steamers, 2968 will know more
     
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  7. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Doesn't seem to have stopped 1) the P2, 2) the Hawksworth County, 3) the derebuilt Merchant Navy, 4) the Churchward County, 5) the Clan. One might suggest that the opposite is almost true.
     
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  8. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Spot on, Cartman. The problem with the Flatirons was a tendency to fall off the track, but the problems with the 2-6-2Ts were a little more complex. The boilers were too small, despite their weight being excessive for their power output. The Fowler version suffered from the Derby short lap - short travel valve gear; strange because the same drawing office had just turned out the very successful 2-6-4T with long lap - long travel gear, schemed out by Eric Langridge. Stanier took the 2-6-2T and gave it a taper boiler (still too small) and long travel gear but it made little difference. Eventually, four of these were rebuilt with larger boilers, but any benefit was cancelled out by the increase in their already excessive weight.

    It has been suggested that Stanier would have done better, instead of using the Fowler 2-6-2T as the starting point, to have based it on the Churchward 45xx 2-6-2T. And who am I to disagree?
     
  9. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member

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    P2 a niche machine which had problems, granted. What was wrong with the Hawksworth County? Original Merchant Navy, again, similar to the Light pacifics, several preserved in original form, Churchward County, bad riders but did the job, and riding not an issue on heritage lines, C!an, not a bad engine but was given class 7/8 work which it wasn't up to
     
  10. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    P2 through County, I'm with you. Clan? Not so much. Reason? The team have done what BR intended, but never got round to. Whilst you're perfectly correct about certain regions (who shall remain nameless (cough) Eastern) hanging class 7 loads behind 'em, following what was proven pretty definitively with 71000, I await 72010's performance with no small amount of anticipation.

    21C11? Even though I'm very glad the coal bill ain't coming my way .... Bring it on! :)
     
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  11. Hirn

    Hirn Member

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    As there is is no provision to "unlike" a post I have given the previous post to this a like.

    The implication of the link to the new build 4-4-0 GWR was apparently that it was an an encouraging selection for a new build. if I am mistaken in this may I apologise but to me it was one of the skeletons in Churchward's cupboard. Admittedly not such a dire one as the Krugers - whose combustion chamber boilers were as bad as their looks - but not an obvious choice to recreate. Now an Aberdare ...... or indeed a new build City or two Dean goods, one of them outside framed....
     
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  12. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Variant with copper cap chimney, top feed boiler and ramsbottom safety valves? Yep .... I could see that.

    Interesting after the initial piston valved superheating, Robinson was content with slide valves*. Common enough in Ireland (but Robinson had left the WL&W in 1900 ... before the advent of superheating). So, what does this new batch get kitted out with?

    *superheating pays for itself, but with the enormous cost of the London Extension, perhaps retaining slide valves wasn't Robinson's decision?
     
  13. daveannjon

    daveannjon Well-Known Member

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    Re the Flatirons I recall piece by a retired driver possibly Tom King that the poor MR permanent way was the problem for them (and I write as a MR fan) with much laid in 45ft lengths. So perhaps shades of the River class problems?
    Dave
     
  14. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Resident of Nat Pres

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    You just click "unlike", Hirn. Or do you mean "dislike" in this instance?
     
  15. Bill2

    Bill2 New Member

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    A.J, Powell and others comment that the basic problem with the LMS class 3 2-6-2 tanks was the use of the standard Midland 8' 0" + 8' 6" coupled wheelbase, unnecessarily long for the job and making too much weight in the chassis that left too little for an adequate boiler; coupled in the Fowler version with poor cylinder and valve design. Powell also says the taper on the original Stanier boiler was excessive to keep weight down, giving an inadequate free gas area and only a 7 element superheater; the later Stanier boilers had less taper. For comparison, the BR standard Class 3s had a much shorter wheelbase.
     
  16. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Thanks for that ... it feels as if we're getting somewhere. With the enormous pressure to forge a single entity from proud independent traditions at the same time the top link was crying out for powerful locos, much heavy goods was in the hands of locos going well beyond their planned withdrawal date (and war-worn into the bargain), I can understand why a design for secondary services wouldn't have been Fowler's top priority.

    Given his 'new broom' approach and the leeway afforded by the supporters of Lord Stamp, I feel perhaps the shortcomings of Stanier's design are less readily explained.

    I've something nagging away about GW 2-6-2Ts in the back of my head and it's that during WWII REC control, some ex-LBSC 'Atlantic Tanks' worked on the GW, turn and about with the native 6-coupled machines and gave a very good account of themselves. I wonder whether Stanier didn't perhaps have the same regard for the 'Prairie Tanks' as he did the Hall and King classes? Or perhaps he just didn't have a large enough briefcase on the day he left Swindon?
     
  17. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

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    Looking at what survives, I think the GWR is pretty well-represented across the board really, with survivors of most of the classes of "standard" tank and tender engine designs.
    Similarly the LMS is pretty well-represented, one notable omission being the Fowler 2-6-4T. I've also said before that a Dunalastair 4-4-0 would be a good performer... A I and a IV would be nice for comparison.
    The Southern I am not too well up on, but some of the 3-cylinder tanks or an H15 would be nice to see, and powerful enough for most lines without being overloaded.
    LNER-wise I can't wait to see the K3 2-6-0... And the Gresley V3 will be a useful addition. I think something like a C16 would be useful too. Big enough to cope with most lines' workings, without being too big

    WIBN, I know, but it would be nice to see useful types.

    Richard.
     
  18. Robin

    Robin Well-Known Member Friend

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    From Churchward on. Sadly under-represented in terms of Armstrong (0) and Dean (1, permanently museum bound).
     
  19. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I'd imagine GJC would be tickled pink that practically everyone thinks "GW .... Brunel .... Churchward .... More bl--dy panniers" !! :)
     
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  20. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    While I’m far too grown up to deal in cheap stereotypes, I’ve seen the documentary evidence and it does show that the GWR had only chocolate and cream carriages and lined green locos.

    The GWR only actually had four loco designs: an 0-4-2T that photographic evidence shows could only manage to pull one carriage; a matchbox on six wheels; another tank engine that originated from the prairies of the US always hauling a set of two carriages called “B”; and a general purpose 4-6-0 called Saint Kingcastle Hall (or Manor). Normal operating practice was for Saint Kingcastle Hall (or Manor) to stop at a station adjacent to the sea (or flower bed) where one of the one coach trains was waiting. The one coach train would then run to a terminus along the “Bacon and Lettuce” line (generally shortened to a BLT) where it would run into a bay platform, while one of the American prairies would be in the main platform and the matchbox on wheels would spend the entire day shunting a single siding in the company of an amphibious brake van.

    Tom
     
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