Sir William A. Stanier, FRS

I've heard rumours of a forthcoming project to build a replica of this loco and would be very interested to hear other members' views as I have mixed feelings about it. What do you think?

 

Are we talking newbuild for main line as in 'Tornado', P2, 'Unknown Warrior' etc., or just a 'cardboard mockup'?

If the former then bring it on, and if I win Euro millions I'll finance it!!

 

A travesty the original wasn't saved for the national collection. That we have Mr Butlin to thank for the class being represented in the collection is a shocking indictment too.

 

6235 was part of the National Collection. 6229 and 6233 were, in reality, a (very welcome) bonus.

Sorry, but much as I admire the Big Lizzies, I have no enthusiasm for this. I see no point in making a set of nameplates and then building a loco to carry them.

 

Re 6235 being part of the national collection, why eventually was 6229 added if a gap didn't exist? Not challenging by the way just curious.

 

I don't think 46235 is part of the National Collection. Isn't it owned by Birmingham City Council?

 

Perhaps some people are thinking about the future of mainline steam ? 6233 has proven to be an extremely reliable loco on the mainline and it looks like larger engines will be the ones that get the work on the main line in the future as they can maintain higher average speeds on a crowded network. While I can understand that this might be controversial, the reasoning behind new builds of the larger engines is clear based upon the mainline rail landscape in a couple of decades time. What would be interesting though are what are any planned modifications to what was a successful design.

 

I'm scratching my head on this one as we're hearing about how steam is being squeezed out and off the mainline. The P2 does fulfil a mainline needs of sorts and its superior adhesion would improve point to point timings - but more Pacifics for the mainline when there's not exactly a shortage of them in preservation seems odd.

There's not exactly a gap in preservation for another duchess either - we have a streamlined one and two non streamlined examples now which cover off the basics of the class (yes Sir William had roller bearings etc but they weren't that much different). So is one required? Probably not. Would there be support for it? I wonder if it has the same appeal as the truly lost classes such as A1, P2, 3MT, Brighton Atlantic, Saint etc.

But would I say don't build it? No - if someone comes up with a reasonable plan and builds support, let them do it.

 

A reminder what it looked like.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/steventoogood53/6726166833
I think it had a lot of Brit features.

 

The only historical value of such a project is that the final pair were Ivatt-designed to provide a comparison with his pair of diesels - 10000 / 1 in which a pair were deemed comparable to a Duchess and a single unit was comparable to a Jubilee and the trials were expected to last longer than BR allowed. I don't think even the historical claim is strong enough to consider a recreation especially since there are 3 examples already in preservation.

 

Have there been any examples of a new build project attracting significant funds and making significant progress when the project duplicates a surviving class?

 

My understanding, and I'm open to correction here, it was a long time ago, is that an unspecified class member was included in the list for the National Collection, and 6235 was chosen purely on the basis that Birmingham Ciry Council, or whatever it was called, offered safe and secure accommodation into perpetuity. Ownership was later transferred to the City of Birmingham, leaving a gap filled by 6229?

As to appearance, appreciation is entirely in the eye of the beholder, and I cannot say that 6256/57 were particularly attractive in comparison to other class members. The best looking, in my opinion, were 6230-34 of the original non-streamlines batch, and also 6249-52, with 6242 coming after Harrow. The curve of the front running plate nicely balanced that under the cab, not a feature of the ex-streamlined engines. The smoke deflectors dramatically changed their appearance, but I'm undecided which I prefer - before or after. But they did add to the impression of bulk. 6249-52 were built with the elongated streamlined tenders, and this added length increased the impression even further.

Sorry, wandered completely off-topic there. Can't think how that happened!

 

If you mean A1 compared to A2 Blue Peter, though very similar in outline the classes are quite different in a number of ways.

However I wouldn't entirely disagree that there's an argument that a Peppercorn A1 isn't sufficiently different from an A2 that one was needed: but then railway preservation isn't just about need. Want and heart leading the head are powerful - and the A1 Trust tapped into a real depth of feeling by seeking to recreate the missing A1 class.

Tornado herself has since proved that it can be done and that it can be sustained further for another new build.

Look at the reaction to the Patriot project as another example. There's a very real desire to recreate that lost class and it also resonates with everyday people regarding its memorial status. I can't see that a recreation of the last Stanier Pacific (Ivatt modifications aside) would have that strength of feeling and support.

Always happy to be proved wrong though.

 

Deleted

 

Thanks for that clarification, 99Z - much appreciated.

 

Fascinating background. Assumed 6229 changed hands before it was decided to overhaul it the first time.
Can't think of many locos that have been national museum pieces but disposed of in one way or another.
Regarding the acquisition policy its hard to see how the first Stanier pacific didn't merit being saved for the nation. Contrast with GWR types where the evolution is well charted within the national collection. Again eternal thanks to Mr Butlin and the 6201 Society.
As for a replica, why not build another 46202, which was unique, has historical significance and, approaching the 75th anniversary of its demise, could be a memorial too?

 

It's an interesting idea - if you mean in final form as Princess Anne, she'd be somewhere between the Duchess and the Princess classes for power but obviously with the Princess wheel arrangement and what was more or less the Duchess front end. Unique to be sure and perhaps something of a draw to compare between Princess, Duchess and the Duke of Gloucester which replaced it.