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The Border Raider - 5 July 2014

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by spicer21, Mar 10, 2014.

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  1. spicer21

    spicer21 Guest

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but cannot see a thread about this tour yet. Found out about it via an email from UK Railtours last week. Basically, it's Tornado from Crewe to Carlisle and return via Shap both ways. Here's a link to the page on their website

    http://www.ukrailtours.com/tourshow..._trains&tourfile=140705_THE_BORDER_RAIDER.txt

    NB

    Not appearing on uksteam yet I notice ?
     
    spicer21, Mar 10, 2014
    #1
  2. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    I expect it will shortly, now that is has been posted on here.
     
    Paul42, Mar 10, 2014
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  3. spicer21

    spicer21 Guest


    Probably yes, I have to say, I didn't know Tornado hadn't yet done both ways over Shap on one railtour, but it's quite right. There was a Border Raider in June 2010, but that came south via the S&C. To be honest, I think that's the better formula, but I guess the Shap both ways itinerary gives a slightly shorter day, and more reasonable start / finish times.
     
    spicer21, Mar 10, 2014
    #3
  4. pjhliners

    pjhliners Member Friend

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    The Caledonian Tornado on 21 September 2011 did Crewe to Glasgow and back in a day, including both Shap and Beattock both ways.

    Peter, at the end of a lovely sunny spring day in Manchester
    http://pjhtransportpix.zenfolio.com/
     
    pjhliners, Mar 10, 2014
    #4
  5. spicer21

    spicer21 Guest


    That's interesting, and yes, I remember that tour now. Reading the UKR piece, it sounds like it's not been done before,

    "This is the tour every true steam devotee has been waiting for, the chance to travel behind 60163, the awesome 'Tornado', over Shap summit both ways, 282 steam miles in all!"
     
    spicer21, Mar 10, 2014
    #5
  6. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    WRONG !! Tornado did a Crewe - Shap - Beattock - Glasgow and return run on 21/09/2011 with the "Caledonian Tornado" - and I have the photographs from the train ON THE DAY to prove it !
     
    Fred Kerr, Mar 10, 2014
    #6
  7. spicer21

    spicer21 Guest

    Not entirely sure of the need for your emotive use of upper case, and exclamation marks ? I was quoting remarks on UKR's website. Furthermore, your point had already been made further up the thread.
     
    spicer21, Mar 10, 2014
    #7
  8. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    The nature of the path will be all important on this trip. There's not much point in having a loco with the capacity to run 100+ miles without water then getting looped en route. I recall that the trip in 2010 was booked to include a water stop at Penrith starting out of Preston. Tornado actually did it non-stop inside even time in 87.5 minutes with 43 up Shap and 480 tons hanging off the drawbar. So hopefully with that knowledge NR will be able to find a path that helps. What that trip also proved is the great advantage in not having to start out of Carnforth. We shot through there at 74 - that makes quite a difference.
     
    Big Al, Mar 11, 2014
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  9. spicer21

    spicer21 Guest

    You're quite right about the June 2010 trip and not stopping at Penrith. I was on board, and it came as a nice surprise, as did the extra photo and drinking time at Carlisle Citadel, :)
     
    spicer21, Mar 11, 2014
    #9
  10. spicer21

    spicer21 Guest

    Of course, and I hardly dare mention it, but the first two weeks in July last year were exceptionally hot if I remember rightly, and there was a steam ban imposed on most of NR. Would be a shame if the same happened this year as when UKR do run with steam, they tend to be classics and very well planned and executed.
     
    spicer21, Mar 11, 2014
    #10
  11. Britfoamer

    Britfoamer Well-Known Member

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    What about the 4-wheel tender ban at Carlisle?
     
    Britfoamer, Mar 11, 2014
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  12. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    I was stated in another thread that it was platform clearances rather than 4 - wheel tenders that are the issue.
     
    Paul42, Mar 11, 2014
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  13. pjhliners

    pjhliners Member Friend

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    pjhliners, Jun 26, 2014
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  14. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Not a trip to be missed. As I said upthread, the opportunity not to be starting out of Carnforth is worth the early start from London and it's just a matter of hoping that NR can give us a decent path. As I've said many times, NR should know by now that a steam charter on the move at 70+ takes up less track time than one stopping and starting in and out of loops.
     
    Big Al, Jun 27, 2014
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  15. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    This is an increasingly rare opportunity for Tornado to remind us what she can do with a dash from Crewe to Carlisle and back via Shap. Whether Network Rail will play ball and offer a path appropriate for the loco is of course the key question. Anything that doesn't involve starting out of Carnforth must be a USP but the potential one-track mind at Milton Keynes may simply see this as another CME and not give us something non stop from Preston. We shall see, but it should be good whatever is thrown at us.
     
    Big Al, Jun 30, 2014
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  16. mike1522

    mike1522 Long Time Member Friend

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    One other thing that I hope this trip accomplishes is the great condition Tornado is in. Without her in the mix among locos available, she could be out and helping run some of these tours on the big yearly schedule.
     
    mike1522, Jul 1, 2014
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  17. pjhliners

    pjhliners Member Friend

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    pjhliners, Jul 1, 2014
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  18. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    The northbound path reveals just how little space there is on the WCML. It looks like we leave Crewe on the tail of a Pendo to Glasgow and then drop behind a Manchester - Edinburgh service at Wigan. And if we run ahead of time we will be stopped at Wigan and again at Preston. As for the stop at Barton, I can't see what passes us whilst we are in the loop so I wonder if this is for water and the Carnforth stop is actually for pathing. It would certainly be quicker taking water other than at Preston where the process is lengthy and involves loco movements.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
    Big Al, Jul 1, 2014
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  19. pjhliners

    pjhliners Member Friend

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    The new Siemens electrics on the Manchester to Scotland services accelerate very fast so doubt if even Tornado could catch a yellow once it goes ahead of us at Wigan. 15 mins for water at Barton sounds tight for watering, and as far as I know it's under the wires. Maybe we'll get a through run from Preston to an early arrival at Carnforth

    Peter in Manchester
     
    pjhliners, Jul 1, 2014
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  20. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I see from the ticket information that Tornado comes off at Preston on the return and not Crewe. A busy WCML was given as the reason. I suspect the other factor is to ensure we have a reasonable stopover at Carlisle and can still get back to London in the normal CME electric path. That's a shame but perhaps not a surprise.

    The strange thing is that the outlines times that UKRT has given do not imply that any time saving is made on the return leg to Crewe by using an electric. So I guess it's down to available paths.

    Anyway, always the optimist, if we leave Carlisle at 1611 as UKRT implies then there is a path for a non stop run back to Preston in 90 min that would get us there ahead of the following Manchester service. Definitely achievable so here's hoping.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
    Big Al, Jul 1, 2014
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