The Cambrian cancelled for 2011 but back in 2012

Above very sad news on WCRC website,due to ERTMS problems. However good news that it will return in 2012,do hope that that will happen.

 

http://www.westcoastrailways.co.uk/cambrian/Cambrian_Details.html

 

One can only hope that the technical problems of mating ERTMS and Steam can be overcome.

The Cambrian Coast is world class scenery, and steam tourism an added attraction.

 

The simple answer is this: the necessary kit doesn't yet exist, simples. They've found this portable Swedish kit, but it'll need testing, type approval, etc. etc. It might get done in time for next year. I think WCRC need to remember that running trains - while enjoyable for us cranks - up and down the the coast is far, far down NR and ATW's list of things to worry about. Shifting pax around safely, on time, and at reasonable/tolerable cost is ATW's only responsibility, ditto NR providing a safe working infrastructure (read=working ERTMS) for ATW to do so.

 

Out of interest, does anybody know how many passengers travel on the eight (2-car?) ATW trains which run up and down the coast each day, compared to the number who travel on the (7 coach?) Cambrian? I have a hunch that WCRC's customers make up a not inconsiderable proportion of the rail users on that line on the days that The Cambrian runs.

 

Also This is going to have a knock on effect for the Snowdonian and Northern fells Railtours (RYTC) As there is no doubt some people will have paid for a service that isn't going to be running!

 

WCRC is a fully accredited TOC with just as much claim to open access rights as the franchisee for welsh passenger services, and I am sure that with their determination they will find a way forward.

The WCRC national summer tourist business between Mallaig and Macchynlleth generates a substantial turnover both for them and Network Rail, so we should not be in the business of talking it down.

 

Er, why?

The cancellation of 'The Cambrian' is solely related to ERTMS and the current inability to run steam on under that system. What has this got to do with either the Snowdonian or Fellsman (sic) or indeed any other operation on non-Cambrian lines?

As a further note, NR are under an obligation to provide access for all licenced operators (it's part of their licence conditions); they therefore have a duty to provide a solution for WCR, as they will freely acknowledge, and are working to resolve that.

JS

 

James

I think Taliesin is refering to the Thursday of this tour only http://www.railwaytouring.co.uk/index.php/snowdonia-and-northern-fells---two-tours.html

Paul

 

You say this as though WCRC is some fly by night company with little or no experience of the real world. Nothing could be further from the truth. As a fully accredited TOC with a nation wide safety case, WCRC will be fully aware of how things are done on the big railway. Wouldn't be at all surprised if the company won't be involved fully with the testing of the kit.

 

If I had the cash, I'd love to run my own railtours up and down the coast section during the off-peak season, and yes, NR have to grant track access to anyone with the necessary paperwork and cash. NR have been struggling with ERTMS, even now several months after it was switched on up the coast. The trouble is, the kit doesn't exist for anything other than DMUs and diesels. Yet. There was an ominous quote from NR in today's Daily Post article about the cancellation of this year's season:

"We are working closely with West Coast Railway to review options for steam trains to run - a bespoke solution is needed. It will need to be cost-effective to justify a business case for the government to support."

We'll have to see if this Swedish ERTMS kit can get approved in time for next year. A friend of mine had a couple of suggestions, one that an observation saloon be tacked onto the rake for 2012 to get some ching out of the Yank tourists, and another, more ambitious one, to put the coast section into effectively private ownership, so anyone could run anything on it without hindrance. ATW would still be allowed to run their pax services. He's a consultant for several blue-chip companies, so he seems to know what he's talking about, well, most of the time anyway! But the obs saloon suggestion is a good one, I think.

 

What the H has this got to do with government?

Either the kit is fit for purpose and can be certified or it can't. I presume ATW are working with NR operated ERTMS right now, and that NR Group Standards and ORR requirements have been met as to technical and operational standards - but that the system is proving unreliable in practice - rather proves the debate about QMS the other week - a pile of paper has a big green tick - but nothing works properly!

The matter of a business case is between WCRC and NR and shouldn't go anywhere near government, as WCRC's business is not subsidised. I understand that ERTMS takes up an area akin to a bay of seats and eats electrical power - is that right - and the heart of the problem?

 

Perhaps NR were looking at getting government cash to pay for the fitment of ERTMS in the 5MT? Actually, since transport is mostly devolved in Wales, there could be a case of approaching the Welsh Government to see if they'd be willing to stump up the cash, even out of the tourism budget.

ERTMS takes up one row of seats approx in a 158: http://www.flickr.com/photos/welsh_snapper/5623000896/in/set-72157626505582144

They also found that it overloaded the 158s' alternator raft, and the solution that was found was to dim the interior lights... really.

The considered opinion of the cranks that I know who are familiar with it, including some electronics experts and someone who had previously work on a similar system, is that -- to put it politely -- ERTMS is a white elephant. More accurately, they reckon it to be a crock of s**t. It's getting more reliable, apparently, but only quite recently one train off Aberystwyth somehow lost 71 minutes between there and Dovey Junction! Other delays have been widespread. There have been many instances of axle counter failures between Welshpool and Newtown, GSM-R failures (Aberystwyth in particular is a "problem" area), necessitating a trip by one of the 97/3s to do a quick survey. The main problems seem to have stemmed from shoving the ERTMS kit into 158s, instead of rebuilding the 158s around the kit, as what happened with the 97/3s. Not that they're much more reliable. 97302 and 97304 failed the other week with GSM-R failures. 97303 did the tamper drag instead, and its ERTMS kit is reckoned to be the most unreliable of the lot!

I don't know if this project has ever been audited, but it's about time it was. Costs have spiralled, which seem to suggest nobody has had a proper grip on it. I've heard of cost over-runs from the original £60m budget being increased by £40m. Just imagine what sort of railway we could have here if we had £100m to throw at it! There was nothing wrong with the RETB apart from neglect and no maintenance. Anyway, that got thrown in the skip at the end of March, so it doesn't exist any more, should something catastrophically bad happen to ERTMS.

That's the gist of it.

Richard

 

Meanwhile, in Scotland, RETB is being maintained and overhauled for a long life....

 

Doesn't ERTMS have to be installed everywhere eventually, in order to comply with EU standards? As I understand it, the Cambrian was selected as the test area simply because if it does go t**s-up any time whilst in the testing process, the 'knock on' is minimal, to the railway anyway...

 

£100m - Jeez - Its a good job they aren't working on a closure case, or that would be a killer component.

So much for increasing line capacity - it looks as if this system kills it at present!

Perhaps we should have left some other country to find this out, or debug it for a decade, to make it work, before importing it here. Why we couldn't run it in tandem mode rather than chuck out the tried and tested RETB system that was a cost saver at the outset is beyond me - but - the techies must have their toys mustn't they? to the detriment of all of us - cranks and normals both.

The idea of premium fare stock - - - dining would surely find a market - especially in the culinary desert that is the Cambrian Coast - but can an observation car meet Group Standard end loading criteria? If it could - the bring them back - and cut holes in the 158s too!

 

The fabled hourly timetable was proposed to be introduced once we had ERTMS installed, but if it was ever introduced, the line would be used to full capacity. We can kiss goodbye to any railtours or ECS moves during daylight hours for a start. The way things are looking, it doesn't look likely we'll see an hourly timetable for quite some time.

The other thing my electronic engineer friends tell me is that they think the entire project and equipment are grossly over-engineered, hence the multiple points of failure, and each one can cause disruption. As for RETB, yes, the Scottish ones are either about to get or have been life-extended and have been maintained well. RETB should be shifting to working over GSM-R from 2012, and it's perfectly feasible to do it. I had heard that NR were looking to keep the Mach RETB equipment mothballed for a year just in case it would ever need to be used if ERTMS had a major paddy. I was shocked to see that it all got stripped out, and Mach box is apparently now decommissioned.

I'd love to see an obs car on the rake, and even a veranda car on the other end, à la the Royal Scotsman? Wouldn't that be wonderful? There's plenty of scope to develop a premium market, and I don't mean sticking curtains up in a TSO and trying to pretend it's a FO. Brunch on the way to Pwllheli, perhaps a coach trip around the Lleyn peninsula during the layover, and dinner on the return? What about being served with Harlech salt marsh lamb just as you view their brethren grazing as you hammer along the long straight. There's 14 months now to think about these points...

 

I think the Government involvement is that NwR have to pay for all ERTMS kit fitted to Rolling Stock and will be getting funded for it from HMG. My understanding is that the generation of ERTMS being tried had not been successfully used anywhere else when the Cambrian project was committed to, but may be now. I don't think the EU are going to get heavy on this because reliable technology has to be available before anyone can be told to fit it. The fact that the UK has, unlike most European countries, currently just one connection to the rest of the European network and loading gauge make inter-operability something of a non-starter means that I am sure the UK could gain exemption from the EU rules on this. Mainland Europe, where trains regualrly run across boarders and such things as differing electrification systems mean dueal triple and even quadruple voltage locos with so many signalling systems I bet they need small drivers to fit them in the cab too mean standard systems are much more necessary.

I understand the "holy grail" of ERTMS is "unlimited line capacity" - in the case of the Cambrian lines, the ability to "flight" trains so more than one is in single line section at a time. This is because ERTMS can tell each train where other are and to slow down or stop if it gets too close to the next train. Working single lines still means passing loops can limit what can travel where and when, but the system gives much more capacity and much less cost for capacity than intermediate block posts. Earlier versions don't have the same abilities on this, and were forecast to reduce capacity - and it is the capacity that makes a long term business case.

Steven

 

Now I know that Wales is hard work as a tourist - but................. They don't do they? :behindsofa: