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The Waverley 2022

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by sgthompson, Jul 9, 2022.

  1. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    This gathering of information about the Ais Gill challenge is innocent enough and it's nice to have the comparative information by loco and load. That said, if I were a West Coast crew then I'd be looking to simply do what's needed to time the train and I'd be surprised if anything approached some of the rather more heady attempts to break any records as I recall was out there when, for example, Tornado first appeared on the scene.

    What it does is reveal how consistent many of the runs are. Given that these are the same crews with the same locos then it's not surprising that they will have a routine way of working.
     
  2. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    It is almost inevitable that enthusiasts, mostly older individuals, will cite the records of yesteryear as being the halcyon days, those golden days when beer and petrol were almost free and food tasted better than it does today. However, the fastest "Blue Riband" times were all set in a very different era when active competition between crews was encouraged and loco owners seemed to enjoy/tolerate their charges being given a good thrashing. Yet still today there often seems to be an underlying expectation that given the right circumstances a record time, or near record time, might suddenly be produced. I am an enthusiast but also a realist and I agree that the small band of drivers will work to a routine and within the loco's comfort zone (and perhaps with BIL well within it - orders from above maybe?) and do only what is required.

    As I have no expectation that a new record time will materialise, the loco be inducted into the "Hall of Fame" and the crew feted for time immemorial, I thought that it might be more interesting to record what is happening now in 2022. The allocation of locos, train lengths, the actions of the crews, the quality of coal and weather are all outside my influence. I will always advocate that the driver should should drive the train as he sees fit - except, of course, when I am on it when it when he should run as hard and as fast as is safely and legally possible.

    As has happened for the past 30 years, with only two exceptions this century, casting aside all times either because the train failed to meet the "Blue Riband" criteria (min of 12 coaches, start from Appleby and no diesel) or the time was below the top 20 just seemed a loss of what could be interesting data. This year, to date (11 posted times) only ONE train met the Blue Riband criteria. "Not a lot of people know that!"

    Keep those times coming and post early to avoid disappointment! Remember the full list will be appearing on YOUR internet device later this year - "You, lucky people!"

    "Oswald T Wistle, almost live, from a darkened room somewhere in Lancashire, now back to Huw Edwards in the studio".
     
  3. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    That's the essence of it. But one day, the CME will leave Carlisle 30 late in good conditions with a loco on good form. Then they will work it just that bit harder up the hill since there is no time to be gained downhill and they will want to be leaving Hellifield as close to time as possible.
     
  4. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Lest you misunderstand me given the above extended post, you have repeated what I said in #42 so I'm pleased we agree and, of course, the line from @30567 is just as valid.
     
  5. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Well-Known Member

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    You only have to go back 15 months to find a time to Ais Gill which was of Blue Riband breaking material, (but it didn't stop at Appleby). The price of coal and other costs won't have helped since then but occasionally in recent times it does happen.
     
  6. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    That's the answer in a nutshell. No point in pushing only to end up at Hellifield and sit there waiting for due time even longer. Northbound is slightly different as a late start needs to be made up for an on time arrival in Carlisle, but there is always the 10+ minutes gained by omitting the water stop.
     
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  7. Bill2

    Bill2 New Member

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    Some comments on the northbound run of the Waverley on Sunday 7th August. 46115 joined the train in the loop at Hellifield, and was ready to go well before time. However the Network Measurement train that we were due to follow was running late and thus Scots Guardsman set out 2 down; worse we were right behind it and had a severe signal check after Long Preston, down to less than 4 mph at one stage, while the train ahead cleared the intermediate block before Horton and thus maximum speed at Settle Junction was only 48 mph. My seat was near the front, and on a fine day with windows open I have to say the Scot sounded good attacking the climb after such a baulked approach. Time to Settle Junction 10 min 33 sec and to Settle 13 min 14 sec at 43 mph with 35½ minimum at milepost 240¼ at the top of the 1-in-100 approaching Helwith Bridge. After an acceleration to 42 on the easier grades beyond the locomotive was noticeably opened up to pass Horton at 39½ with a slight gain to 41 up the 1-in-200 to post 243¾ followed by a gradual fall to 38 at post 245¾ where the regulator was eased for the Ribblehead slack. Time from the start to Horton 22 min 36 sec, to Ribblehead 29 min 58 sec, and to Blea Moor 32 min 36 sec after a 20 mph tsr over the loop points approaching the box. Speed recovered to 28½ mph entering Blea Moor tunnel with a strong acceleration through the bore and a maximum of 49 before slowing to 30 at Dent and another noisy acceleration to 57 before Garsdale and 60 at Lunds with 58 passing the summit sign at Ais Gill. Time to Dent 40 min 38 sec and to Garsdale 44 min 38 sec where the train was ten minutes late after the slow start. However, it had already been decided that the scheduled water stop at Langwathby would not be needed and thus there was no call for any great hurry downhill. In the event, after a signal check at Culgaith and a slowing at Baron Wood arrival at Carlisle platform 1 was ten minutes early in 100 min 4 sec from Hellifield.

    Many thanks to RTC for promoting the tour and to West Coast and crews for operating it.
     
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  8. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    And I'm equally pleased that we agree. No misunderstanding but, with hindsight, my post would probably have been better split, a simple "I agree" as a reply. Then a separate post explaining why I thought that current times might be of more interest than commenting on Blue Riband failures to meet expectations or, at best, near misses.
     
  9. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    We can all but hope. BIL is probably the only current CME loco capable of a super fast time but also has a large water capacity. 30L off Carlisle the train would most likely run thro' at Appleby and despite having 12 coaches, no diesel and running like the wind and posting a near even time couldn't be included. It would still be an exceptional run but shouldn't be compared directly to those true Blue Riband runs that did stop at Appleby.
     
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  10. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    I agree Ian and that is my point we should be appreciating what we have now; some runs are exceptional. One of my most memorable runs was behind 70000 (29 May 2019), 19m 1s starting from Appleby but ONLY 11 coaches. In July the same loco ran even faster (based on RTT, video and on board accounts) - but no times, to my knowledge, have ever been published.
     
  11. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Ten years more worth of data and we should have a calibrated model including the best estimate of the penalty of an Appleby start. Keep up the good work David! Best, Peter
     
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  12. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture

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    Does anyone know if this Sunday’s Waverley is running as Railadvent shows it as cancelled ?
     
  13. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Well-Known Member

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    This Sunday and next have both been removed from the RTC web site in the last few days, so understand them both cancelled.
     
  14. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture

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    Thanks Ian , I’d heard they’d been cancelled but wasn’t sure so thanks again.
     
  15. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    We have had some overnight rain in various parts of the NW, so let's hope that it was sufficient to allow today's run to be diesel-free. (With or without a diesel) I would be grateful if anyone travelling can record, then post a time for the climb from Ormside to the Aisgill summit sign. I am keeping a record of all posted times for the year. [Pleases see post #63 on the "WCRC Scarborough Spa/Dalesman/Spirit of the Lakes/normal tours 2022" thread for full details.]

    Thanks in anticipation and enjoy. Remember, "Oswald needs YOUR time!"
     
  16. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture

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  17. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture

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    35018 at Selside Cottages .

     
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  18. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Well-Known Member

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  19. Shep Woolley

    Shep Woolley Well-Known Member Friend

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    Waverley BIL 1 NP.jpg

    Approaching Horton in Ribblesdale Station 'British India Line' with the final 'Waverley' northbound to Carlisle with Chris Cubitt driving and Rob Russell firing.

    Waverley BIL 2 NP.jpg

    In fading light SRMN No. 35018 'British India Line' working the return 'Waverley' through Garsdale Station with Steve Chipperfield driving and Craig Todd on the shovel
     
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  20. Shep Woolley

    Shep Woolley Well-Known Member Friend

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