Tornado

There is only Bunker-James still involved with the Trust (no longer a Trustee) who was involved with the original boiler order with Meiningen and David Elliott was mostly excluded from subsequent boiler orders from Meiningen which were lead by Bunker-James and Davies.

 

Is this one of the reasons why the loco has its fire built up differently to other engines too?

 

I’ve always been of the view that there is an element of “you pays your money and you takes your choice” here. Steel fireboxes are typically considerably cheaper than copper (especially in materials) but also considerably less long lasting. So you get a cheap steel firebox but you essentially might have to replace it entirely every ten years, or a more expensive (in initial cost) copper box that is more forgiving of renewal via repair. Not to say one is right and one is wrong, just different cost models at work.

As you say, perhaps the issue is going for the steel box but then looking to repair rather than replace?

Tom

 

I know that I don't often agree with Eightpot, but AIUI this is pretty much what happened, I was told that the A1SLT had to establish their own CE for the design thus relieving Meiningham of the responsibility.

class8mikado is quite correct as in European practice things like replacing broken stays is regarded as routine maintenance requiring no specialist processes, whereas British practice involves jumping through hoops, paperwork and further (unnecessary) expense. Sadly even pre Brexit Britain had far to many vested interests to fully engage with the E.U.

Regarding a complete new build British built copper boxed boiler, would this be permitted now? What is the situation regarding New riveted boilers? I know that in My boiler making days We would re-use part of the pressure vessel in order to qualify as a rebuild, thus reducing the expensive paperwork at the expense of heavier but cheaper manual labour. WRT new riveted structures Medway Queen with it's new riveted hull is subjected to so many restrictions as to make it effectively impractical.

 

82045's boiler is a traditional British type well on its way to completion at Bridgnorth.

 

Likewise 105 at Whitehead

 

My understanding is that there was a desire to maintain the grate area of the original. Added to that, there was a difference in how welded stays were done between UK and German practice. In the UK the stays are a close fit in the hole and welded using J prep. In Germany the stays are a loose fit and fillet welded. The latter results in an effectively longer and thus more flexible stay. The former approach was adopted as it complies with BS.2790 and compliance with the latter would make type approval much easier.
as to why steel and not copper, would guess a combination of cost and the fact that Meininghen had little experience of copper would be factors.
Happy to be corrected on all the above but that’s my understanding.

 

Thanks for putting into words my understanding of the method of welding. Too much of a layman to explain it like that.

 

Boston Lodge have turned out several in recent years and are currently designing a new one for the Darjeeling locomotive.
It may take up a bit of space than usual but I suspect they would be more than happy to have a go at one for an A1 or P2..

 

I know it’s not been used yet, but the Patriot boiler is basically finished isn’t it? Hopefully not facing some of the challenges the chassis did


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Probably the wrong thread ?

 

I don't think Tornado has actually run along the GCR yet but I believe it is very close to steaming.

 

Sorry, I was just carrying on the discussion about new boilers built in Britain recently…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Are the boilers for 82045, 105, the Patriot and the FFestiniog ones brand new all rivetted boilers? As welded boilers have been in use (in Britain) for well over 70 years can they not be described as 'Traditional'? It is very easy to inform laymen Who may not be actively involved of one thing when their mind tells them that You said something different, thus leading to confusion. I'm not one to take umbrage, But on this occasion I will point out that @Steve 's recent post is saying precisely what I posted lord knows how many pages back, and My post was largely ignored, despite the number of boilers that I have been involved in the rebuilding of.

 

It’s been very close to steaming for 2 years!

 

Been mulling this subject over the last day or two. It seems it was not the best of decisions to disregard Meiningen's advice on increasing the the water spacing between the inner firebox and the outer firebox wrapper, thus permitting longer stays and reducing to risk of stay bolt breakage. By increasing the distance between the two (and making the stays longer) by (say)1-1/2", plus allowing for the thinner (10 mm ?) steel firebox compared with a copper one (3/4"?) this would have reduced the grate are by a little over 4 square feet to around 46 sq. ft., which is still more than a Gresley "Pacific" grate area of 41-1/4 sq. ft.

That said, when my CME friend and myself went to that special open day at Darlington soon after the boiler was delivered, there were a number of aspects of it that were' to us, a cause for concern.

1) The welded join between the tapered barrel and the outer firebox wrapper at around the 10 to 11 o'clock position when viewed from the smokebox end, the two surfaces were not lined up properly prior to welding.

2) The transverse firebox stays above the crown sheet had no more than a glorified washer welded to the outer wrapper with the stay rod emerging at something like a 45 degree angle. This meant the tp permit this the hole in the washer would have to be much oversize to achieve this angle and much weld filler material applied to seal up the gap.

Meiningen it seems were unaware that during WW2 some Class 52 'Kriegsloks' had boilers that were welded, but instead af flat washers a drop-forged steel tapered stamping was welded onto the outer wrapper so that the stay rod emerged much closer to 90 degrees. I've got a drawing of this but am having difficulty in putting it on here at the moment.

3) Can't say that we were very keen on the idea of the copper oval sealing rings for the boiler wash-out doors. What happens when given time there is corrosion on the sealing face between the copper and its mating steel face or the external stud nut being over tensioned?

As my friend said at the time - "I'll give that boiler 10 years." I don't think he was far out.

 

Success! This is from the Paper No. 467 - 'A General Survey of the German Locomotive Industry during the War Years 1939-45' that appeared in the Institution of Locomotive Engineers Journal, No.198, July-August 1947.