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Trespassers

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by ralphchadkirk, May 31, 2009.

  1. MacRat

    MacRat New Member

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    I doubt it - sounds like another load of nonsense to me, and there's enough of that on this thread already.
     
  2. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    Well aperture what a charmer you are and I take great offence at your comments

    Sorry to say but I actually want to take the very best pictures I can , and I'm willing to put effort and planning into it to achieve that goal . A mediocre , poorly lit , station shot with lots of punters on it, whilst satisfying to sum is not what I want
    ]
    And it's not a matter of national importance you are right on that , and i don't work or think i work for Mi5 but why should I or anyone else accept second best . Anderson , Treacy, Pirt, Gifford , Krause and many more all aspired to take great pictures and their work stands out

    Now whats the difference between following your football team all season , Fishing , railway photography , Vintage Cars . In all of these you want whatever you follow to be successful

    In the last few years i've been to the Mid hants once , and that was for about 2 hours . I have regular trips to the Bluebell and I've run charters there and the KESR . All of these places have received a far larger share of my income than the MHR because in words and deeds I don't feel welcome nor will it offer me an enjoyable day out . How many others like me feel the same ?
     
  3. shredder1

    shredder1 Member

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    Its actually called obsessive personality disorder, (OPD), I think I have it actually and collect really expensive guitars :-k
     
  4. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Pathetic attempt at trolling [-X , typical of the utter contempt some sadly associated with the MHR treat the people they were ultimately set up for.

    Top post by Sidmouth, Charter revenue add's up, revenue the MHR is currently recieving 0% of.

    Perhaps Aperture has a jealousy that his machine gunned, over exposed, end of platform shots are not up to others standards me thinks, certainly no one else on the "against" side is resorting to childishness.

    I do get the Impression the MHR is becoming the new Paignton and Dartmouth in some respects to thinking enthusiasts don't matter whereas the mentioned line has started to listen to their idea's, im not tarring everyone there with the same brush by any means but this attitude is coming from somewhere.
     
  5. 80154

    80154 New Member

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    The MHR safety officer has probably carried out a review on past photo pass arrangements and having carried out risk assessments he's probably come to the conclusion that on the MHR the likelihood of that risk is too high to be carried by their Public Liability Insurance or whatever criteria he's bound to work by.

    The MHR does however have a slight problem in that they do allow official photters on the lineside. This then leads non regular photters to believe that it's OK for anyone to hop over the fence. The MHR may have thought this one through; if they haven't then with respect maybe they should.

    We all go on the lineside with lineside passes where these are available having signed off a personal liability clause. MHR may well be uncomfortable with this arrangement.

    We have to remember that unfortunately we all live in a very blame conscious society and a working railway is indeed a hazardous place. We all have to remember that a hazard is something which can cause harm, injury or death. A railway can be just that, indeed a public highway carries as much risk too (probably more so). However, we must remember that railways are operated under much more stringent safety guidelines and therefore it is incumbent on any visitor to abide by whatever rules, guidelines, restrictions that the management of that railway deem appropriate and hence impose. This may not be to the liking of the photting fraternity but however they are viewed; seemingly draconian or not, we must remember that even if we lose our head (literally) on the railway then we must remember that the managers of that railway may also figuratively lose their heads too. Now is that fair? Under health and safety law, the managers can be tried in both a criminal court and given a prison sentence and they can also be sued in a civil court for damages. A double whammy if need be.

    There are some railways, the NNR is one, where a lineside pass is a complete waste of time as the best shots can be had away from the lineside, except of course if you want to do almost head on front three quarters! I feel a yawn coming on.....

    Seriously, however, there is a problem that many railways also face and that is the possibility of some photters becoming abusive or threatening. How do you safely deal with that. The animals are out there somewhere I'm afraid.

    The GCR does have a very good policy; one which should possibly be followed by other lines and then it would simply be a case of no official Hi-viz and attached identity card so off you go, back the other side of the fence! It could follow, that if you mis-behave or mis-use your pass then it should be rescinded and possible repeat offenders names passed around to other lines rather like west end stores do for serial shop-lifters. Offenders spoil it only for themselves that way.

    If the MHR doesn't want to do things any other way and the photters don't like it then the photters have a simple choice; either stay away, keep to the right side of the fence or write a constructive letter outlining your concerns or become a member and try and get the decision democratically overturned. But please recognise that we all have a duty and responsibility to each other as far as safety is concerned. that is definitely the rule on Construction sites. Yes, people get killed and maimed every year on construction sites, and why? because of poor site management, no RAs or method statements and worst of all risk takers who flout the rules, and in this case the Regulations under the H&SWA 1974.

    A Hi-viz vest is not a suit of armour! If you trespass and get injured even if you wear a Hi-viz, then you all must totally bear the responsibility.

    Please, don't shoot the messenger at the MHR. Politely ask them for their reasons and maybe a little background to those reasons, then no matter how un-palatable it may seem to some photters, we all simply have to obey the rules.
     
  6. Brunel

    Brunel Member

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    At the end of the day, trepassing is against the law.

    The Mid Hants Railway decided quite awhile back that employing a lineside pass scheme was too much of a overhead to administer, and was against their safety case.

    Once again, it is a small minority which have spoilt it for the majority. I would not be surprised if all lineside passes on all perserved railways are withdrawn in the future, due to the persistent selfishness of a small minority who always think that they are above the law.

    I thoroughly support the Mid Hants policy of publishing the trepassers photos on their website, and sincerely hope that these people are caught. This should be a warning to others in the future.
     
  7. cct man

    cct man Part of the furniture

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    Your points are taken Martin, although I think it,s a bit unfair to tar us all with the same brush.

    I had a similar experiance at the East Lancs Railway where the staff were rude, stand offish and unhelpfull, I swore that I would never go there again. However with hindsight I suspect that I had caught a few people on an off day and when next in that neck of the woods I shall go there again.

    What with the credit crunch and a change in some of the key staff the MHR is going through a radical change at present, some for the bad but most for the good which means there is bound to be times when customers are upset.

    Might I suggest you contact Colin Chambers direct?

    Best regards
    Chris
     
  8. David

    David Member

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    Yes well said Martin, completely agree with your thoughts. When is the Mid-Hants going to realise that their lineside ban just simply doesn't work due to factors such as a Public Right of Way crossing on the lineside and no wardens walk the track to enforce it on gala days anyway. There are some really good areas on the lineside that are easily accesible such as the crossing between Alresford and Ropley that are very photogenic areas. So why doesn't the powers that be put a warden on these areas to watch over the photographers and ask for a donation in between £10-15 to help out the railway in return for letting them phot on the lineside and obey the basic H&S rules. Either that or open up the chance to apply for day/yearly lineside passes. The railway is losing a fair amount of money by choosing to have a lineside ban, I can understand why they originally brought in the ban due to some stupid behaviour. But the rest of us responsible photters shouldn't be labelled with them and be given the opportunity to put money into the railway by either paying for a pass or donating money in a collecting tin from the warden at one of the popular lineside areas during a gala w/e.
     
  9. shredder1

    shredder1 Member

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    "I had a similar experiance at the East Lancs Railway where the staff were rude, stand offish and unhelpfull"

    would you mind explaining this one?
     
  10. Small Prairie

    Small Prairie Part of the furniture

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    Im going to quote tiny bits and reply instead of one large reply.

    Correct , its both stupid and illegal

    Depends what halm your on about , if its to the tresspasser , then possibly none at all . thats if his not hit of course . But i have been ( and im still young so have not had my fair share of things unlike 4464 has) that even seeing someone cross the line feet from infront of you doesnt do you any good . Ive had it now were the local chavs at Alton have tresspassed but while running out infront of an engine trying to jump onto a flatbed wagon. Doesnt do the driver. fireman or cleaner any good Nor does it do anyone hanging out the windows any good .

    Ive seen my fair share of deaths already , and it still hasnt stopped me being shaken up over even near misses .

    on the MHR alone . i know of atleast 4 near misses . Only takes a slip of a foot on ballast and its game over.

    so Columbine , please rethink about the idea of tresspassing does no halm before you reply with such STUPID comments
     
  11. shredder1

    shredder1 Member

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    I think one of the main considerations is the protection of the preservation movement and the preserved railways, we are very fortunate to have what we have and the people who give their time to run such things, wanton tresspass is disrespectful, we owe the movement much more than this.
     
  12. Beaker

    Beaker Well-Known Member

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    Just because people do not agree with your attitude towards the trespassers, it does not mean they agree with the trespassers attitudes either. All you are achieving is giving you're railway a negative impression by flaming down anybody who dares criticise the approach made.

    You're coming up with a short term solution, not a long term.
     
  13. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres

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    Its about time this became a national - not local - discussion as I have been advocating a reasonable policy idea for the last 5 years but no-one takes it seriously; even the Heritage Railway Association considered it not worth following through.

    So I now put in on public record and see what the consuming public thinks.

    My idea is that photographers obtain a photo permit from their local / chosen heritage line which means that they pay a basic Membership Fee PLUS a Photo Pernmit fee of - say - £20:00.

    Thus at stage 1 Heritage line has extra income of £20:00 but needs to keep a record of pernmits issued and membership /. permit number for reference.

    When a photographer visits any other line he reports to a station booking office where he identifies himself by showing permit and suitable hi-vis clothing, signs a register and pays the line a nominal sum ( £1:00 ? ) for which he receives a printed sheet advising local restrictions ( e.g. no walking through tunnel / adjacent fields which are not accessible etc ) Thus each line visited gains an income from the photographer and the photographer gains both credibility and a note assisting with local conditions that he needs to respect.

    If a photographer commits an offence whilst linesiding that offence is reported to the issuing heritage line which endorses the photo permit; once a pre-determined number of endorsements per pre-determined period are received the the permit is suspended / withdrawn and the photographer thereby loses his permit and priveleges.

    The problem is that although the trespass is local to each line it can engender in one person a rationale that can cause problems at any heritage line hence the view that action needs to be on a national level rather than a local one.

    It may be a lot of effort for heritage lines to undertake but I feel it better to undertake on a voluntary basis rather than be imposed on a compulsory basis with elements of action which may not be as acceptable with penalties imposed which are even more so.

    This is my simple plan which I think can work fairly easily - what do others think ?
     
  14. Beaker

    Beaker Well-Known Member

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    I'd charge more for each visiting line, to make it an incentive for the lines to 'buy into' the scheme, but seems good enough.
     
  15. David

    David Member

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    Yes a well thought through good idea Fred, hopefully this is the way forward. =D>
     
  16. cct man

    cct man Part of the furniture

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    Nothing much more to add really, I was there with my Wife for a days gricing and when I asked a few questions I was curtly told that I haven, t the time nor the inclination to talk, especially to someone from another Railway.

    This and other incidents on that day were most upsetting. However that is in the past , now is the time to move forward.

    Regards
    Chris
     
  17. shredder1

    shredder1 Member

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    yes sounds like a good proposal Fred
     
  18. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    Yes, looks a good idea but given the rivalries and obstructive behaviours that show themselves all too often, I predict that unfortunately it will not be adopted.

    But here's hoping!
    Alan
     
  19. 34007

    34007 Part of the furniture

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    It's funny how these people get away with it, just for the perfect shot... There should be security or MHR people around or near the line and asking if they have lineside permits! That would be how I would run it - Find the hotspots and even get the drivers to ask or the guards even....
    Colin Chambers would be very happy in naming and shaming those people. If they have a valid MHR PTS of course then that is a different story altogether. I guess we shalll wait and see. And when I am next down there I will be keeping an eye out for these people.....

    Cheers

    Andy
     
  20. Columbine

    Columbine Member

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    Thanks to 'Beaker' for summing up my attitude. Playing chicken with a railway train (or playing chicken at all) doesn't impress me neither does the attitude of those enthusiasts who simply want to turn up and take stills or movies without paying anything back to a railway. The point I was trying to make is this is a topic which really winds people up but I cannot for the life of me understand why. The truth is that people are going to trespass but provided they are safe it doesn't really matter. They (or you or me or anyone else), whether permission has been obtained or not, just need to keep at least two metres away from the track and keep a very good lookout for trains. It helps to know the timetable, indeed it is essential.

    Personally I think that there are areas of railway that ought to be a no go policy, such as places (and they occur on most railways) where it is unsafe such as embankments where the engineers only prepared a formation for a single track or double track sections which again fill the formation. I have always been concerned about the GCR in this connection, but then I don't have a lineside pass for that railway, it's too expensive!

    It's clear that the MHR has a problem if kids are playing chicken on the railway, but I thought this discussion was about railway enthusiasts being on the private side of the fence.

    I think it's best to chill on this one.

    Regards
     

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