West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Peak Yellow timetable which starts on Wednesday 25th July has been revised.


https://www.west-somerset-railway.co.uk/timetables/view/32

 

One of my favourite such memories is of the loose shunting of Mark 1 and Mark 2 passenger coaches in Clapham Junction Yard in 1986 when I was a trainee on the Waterloo Area. The practice had been officially banned for some years but the SM was afraid of the effect of challenging the practice.

Robin

 

There was an opportunity at Willesden when the Chunnel opened and RfD shifted operations from Brent Sdgs to the new WEFOC. All trains arriving Brent for sorting routinely had the wires or strings pulled, and all shunting was either loose or placed unbraked. In WEFOC everything was placed with air brakes in use, it took longer but was accepted because it was a different yard.

 

I don't know if they are the same size but when the turntable was moved from Pwllheli all the engineering bricks which formed the walkway around the table were brought home. The last time I saw them they were stacked on a wagon at DR East or DR west.

Hugh

 

I pity the Station staff and public-facing train crews dealing with trains at different times to the public timetables. But the stresses and strains of the published timetable were just too great.

Robin

 

Robin - I also saw it being done with Pulman stock atClapham

Dave

 

I'm one, so could someone explain, please (and I apologise for continuing the thread drift).

 

Ah yes the 'Good Old Days' as some people like to refer to them, only last week at my Parents my Mum showed me one of my Dad's collars on his shirt, bear in mind he works in the buffet car rather than on the footplate it shows how dirty the railway can be, and how labour intensive things were back then and even today, trying to recreate, 'The Good Old Days'

 

I see the S160 is back in action today

 

I understand that the changes are something to do with fitting in with the bus timetable at BL but are there any other factors that have made the changes necessary?

Personally I thought the hourly timetable was a good idea - easy to remember what times the trains run, but I'm not involved in the running of the railway so what do I know?

 

The main reasons are to give the footplate and on-train crews the chance of a longer mid-day break, and give more time for the servicing of locos at Minehead.

 

Wonder how long it will last this time?

 

Certainly.

Loose shunting is the practice of uncoupling wagons (usually with a shunting pole), then propelling them a short distance with the loco, the loco then stops and the wagons continue to roll into the siding until they either are stopped by a "catcher" or brakeman using the handbrake, or they roll to a stop in clear in the siding or they buffer up to stock already in the siding.
The loco would often give a little extra push after uncoupling, to ensure the wagons rolled far enough "hitting 'em up" after "knocking 'em off" or " 'ooking 'em off " experienced judgement needed to avoid heavy collisions. After a train of say 40 wagons had been split in this way into half a dozen sidings, the pilot loco would ""close up" each siding in turn, allowing a man to go down each road coupling up either ready for the next sorting or ready for the guard of the train they formed to pipe up. Of course in a classic "hump" marshalling yard, all of the "cuts" would be uncoupled before the train moved, then bring very slowly propelled over the hump where each raft of wagons would gather speed on the downhill side towards the selected siding. Any form of loose shunting requires the sidings to be long enough to allow wagons to safely roll in clear of the next road without heavily hitting what was there beforehand.

Fly-shunting is a lot more hazardous and requires coordinated timing from those involved. Hauling loose coupled wagons towards facing points until they are rolling well, loco easing off so that couplings go slack, shunter quickly flicking off the coupling with his pole, loco speeding up and heading into one siding, pointsman quickly changing points between loco and wagons, wagons continuing to roll past loco into the other siding. The only place I saw it done regularly was at
Hoo Jn where the siding used by a scrapman (Smeeth Metals) for cutting up condemned stock was a "kickback" sdg facing the opposite way to the other sidings, scrappers pushed into B5, then hauled towards B Neck, fly shunted into the Back Rd, while loco continued up B Neck. Sometimes it was done by loco heading for A Neck, wagons towards B Neck, this allowed for a long run round via A 1 or 2 Reception if the wagons didn't roll far enough. I seem to recall there were a couple of loose three links left normally lying between the tracks there as it was easier to do if the coupling was really long by hanging on both hooks rather than one end being in the drawbar slot. I doubt if it was officially authorised even way back then, but it saved a very long run round to propel wagons safely into the Back Rd.

Loose shunting is not to be confused with loose coupled shunting, meaning simply shunting without coupling the automatic brakes.

That is the way the two terms were used in my experience.(if course regional differences may exist)

 

There was a practice similar to fly shunting- roping. but only marginally safer. the loco would be conected to the wagons to be shunted by a long hemp rope.The loco would set off getting the waggons moving as the rope tightened. As the loco cleared the points they would be thrown to send the rake into the other siding. Only slightly safer as speed was lower and things a little more under control

 

Loose shunting:-

A locomotive needs to move a vehicle to a new position, say the end of a siding, it can do so by pushing the attached vehicle to the end of the siding uncoupling and the locomotive then returning to its starting point. This can be made easier (but not safer) by uncoupling the vehicle first and giving it a good shove, the vehicle can then roll to the end of the siding by itself. This youtube clip shows it in practice . Unless the vehicle has a controllable brake its arrival at the buffer stops or against a stationary wagon can be gentle or abrupt! It may not get that far and much depends upon the skill of the driver and shunter.

Gravity shunting:-

This is very much the same as loose shunting except the locomotive does not need to give a shove, or even need to be there. If the vehicle is at the top of an incline taking the brake of will provide the necessary movement.

Fly shunting:-

This is a very risky process and so unsafe that it should not be attempted in today's workplace.
The station of "Little Hamlet" has a single platform 'A' and a single siding 'B' , both end in buffer stops and they are at the end of a single branch line 'C' . The station of Little Hamlet does not have a run round loop as trains are worked by DMU's. A locomotive is towing a goods van that needs to be put in the siding 'B' and the locomotive needs to return back up the branch. The locomotive is trapped on the buffer stops side of the goods van (and no willing horse is available). The process is as follows.

• The locomotive with goods van attached stops some 100 yards short of the point leading to the siding 'B'.
• A shunter walks forward and sets the point for platform 'A'.
• Another shunter positions himself on the line side level with the coupling between the locomotive and the goods van with his coupling pole ready to unhook the coupling which will be left slack.
• When all staff are ready the locomotive sets off towards the point towing the goods van at a jogging pace, the shunter running along side.
• The driver momentarily applies the brake so easing the coupling, at the same time the running shunter has to flick the coupling off the hook of the locomotive.
• Once uncoupled the driver apples power to accelerate the locomotive away from the still rolling goods van.
• The locomotive continues over the point and into the platform 'A'.
• Once the locomotive is past the point the shunter on the point lever has to assess the speed of the van and decide if it is going slow enough for him to safely pull the point and fast enough to have enough momentum to roll far enough into the siding 'B'.
• If all is well the shunter pulls the point lever and sets the point to siding 'B', he then runs with the goods van and applies the hand brake to stop it at the desired location.
• The locomotive is now free to return up the branch.

The considerable risk of staff running beside rail vehicles whilst trying to use a shunting pole or apply a brake make this so dangerous that it should not be attempted under any circumstances.

Most embarrassing is for the possibility of the goods van coming to a rest when part way across the point, in the extreme if the staff cannot move it by hand an other locomotive must be summoned to sort out the problem. Even worse is for the point blades not going over fully and the goods van to drop into the dirt.

If the station of Little Hamlet is on a falling grade towards the buffer stops the same could be achieved by gravity shunting the goods van.

I could find no videos of proper fly shunting.

Hope this helps explain,
Andy

 

It was (in principle) a good idea, but the practicalities weren't perhaps thought through enough. It also doesn't give enough time for the (high) proportion of folk who make one round trip to spend some money in the shop / café at the other end, in either direction.

Robin

 

Many years ago, the approved method for shunting into the Sewage works siding at Rolvenden (no longer there) was to fly shunt. This was the usual home of the Ransome crane so I have certainly 'flyed' that into there on occasion. Not in the last 25 years, I hasten to add. We didn't destroy many wagons in the process.

Robin

 

'Roping' as it was known, was particularly destructive of lineside furniture. Signals, fences, human beings to name but a few....

Robin