If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

West Somerset Railway Operations

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    6,265
    Likes Received:
    6,827
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham, or Sheffield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Far better for members of the WSR to consider how their posts look to the outside world. Remember this thread is the main thread for the WSR, one of the largest heritage railways in the country, so it's always going to have a dedicated thread on the country's largest heritage railway forum. And if that thread exists then all the time things like this are going on in the public eye it'll always appear here, as long as it doesn't contravene rules - on the odd occasion it has the moderators have acted. The reputation of the WSR should not be the responsibility of the moderators of an online forum!!
     
  2. Ron Sidewater

    Ron Sidewater Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    332
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Dog Walker
    Location:
    Edge of Exmoor
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    That's a bit rich! Since Friday morning there has been 220 post to this forum, of which I think that about 10 are from other WSR staff, either paid or volunteer, with the rest just being others telling the WSR how to run its railway.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  3. DragonHandler

    DragonHandler Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2016
    Messages:
    1,016
    Likes Received:
    1,232
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    West London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I agree. The WSR, as one of the largest Heritage Railways, is always going to have a thread on here so there's no point in closing this one.
    What perhaps should be done is to move all the 4110 related posts to a separate thread.
     
  4. Triumph 2500S

    Triumph 2500S Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2014
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    640
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Swindon
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I was unaware of any WSRA Board changes since the arbitrary removal of Rodney Greenway and Frank Courtney as Trustees so how is that a very different organization?
     
    Ferguson likes this.
  5. gwilialan

    gwilialan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    2,382
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Instrumentation, Control & Automation Engineer
    Location:
    East Sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Sounds very much like politicians to me...
     
    Sunnieboy likes this.
  6. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    932
    Likes Received:
    1,404
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    He was writing about Italian politics :) notorious for its disfunction, idiocy, preening vanity and egos.
     
  7. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    6,265
    Likes Received:
    6,827
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham, or Sheffield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I did say "members", not just active volunteers. If that last comment is directed at me and others outside the WSR bubble, I don't think that's entirely fair. We just see the mess and arguments of the WSR and comment accordingly. We aren't in a faction, so can't contribute to any perception of the WSR at war. And yes, we do give opinions on how some things could be achieved, based on how we see our own and other railways operate and how well that works compared with how the WSR does this and how well it doesn't work.
     
    ghost, MellishR, oddsocks and 2 others like this.
  8. gwilialan

    gwilialan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    2,382
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Instrumentation, Control & Automation Engineer
    Location:
    East Sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Oh, Italian politics, thank goodness for that. I thought he might have been watching the Br**it shenanigans :)
     
    The Dainton Banker likes this.
  9. Triumph 2500S

    Triumph 2500S Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2014
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    640
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Swindon
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I hope that funding does not get divided and therefore neither party has the funds to purchase 4110

    This could only happen on the WSR!

    Of course 4110 Ltd., could register for VAT
     
    Ferguson likes this.
  10. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    932
    Likes Received:
    1,404
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think it is universal for all politics and all organisations- although some are worse than others.
     
  11. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,690
    Likes Received:
    7,336
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Chartered Certified Accountant
    Location:
    North Yorkshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The impression is that considerably more of the posts are from people connected with the West Somerset Railway, as @flying scotsman123 says 'supporters'.

    Those who are not connected (and I am one of them) have been offering advice and suggestions aimed at being helpful. Nobody is telling anyone how to do anything, merely highlighting how others do it and do it successfully.

    I mean, after all, what is there about the present position of the West Somerset Railway that would make anyone think that it needs 'telling how to run its railway'?!?

    Steven
     
    Sunnieboy, Steve, ghost and 7 others like this.
  12. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,690
    Likes Received:
    7,336
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Chartered Certified Accountant
    Location:
    North Yorkshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    May I quote from the H M Revenue & Customs guidance on VAt Registration:

    'VAT is a tax businesses have to charge when they make business supplies (that is, they sell goods or services) in the UK '

    My bold - as I understood it, 4110 Ltd were merely intending to secure the loco. They have stated they are in the process of registering for VAT but are they a business and what business supplies do they intend to make?

    Steven
     
  13. Triumph 2500S

    Triumph 2500S Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2014
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    640
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Swindon
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    "(something for which 4110 Ltd appear to have no plan nor proposed source of funding)"

    Have a heart Steven the 4110 boys raised £120,000 and their objective was to secure the engine - with that degree and dynamism I am sure they would be able to plan for the restoration with the same degree of success. To raise that amount of money over the Christmas period is nothing short of miraculous.

    The question that must be asked is the WSRA also capable of such success?
     
    Fish Plate, tracker, Ferguson and 8 others like this.
  14. Triumph 2500S

    Triumph 2500S Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2014
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    640
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Swindon
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I am no expert but I am sure they would invoice the plc for its use when restored and that would be VATable but then I am no Accountant!
     
  15. huochemi

    huochemi Member Friend

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,867
    Likes Received:
    815
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    Although it is academic, could the VAT be avoided by transferring the loco into a newly incorporated sub of the PLC, then sell the shares (and paying stamp duty of 0.5%)?
     
    michaelh likes this.
  16. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,690
    Likes Received:
    7,336
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Chartered Certified Accountant
    Location:
    North Yorkshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The H M Revenue & Customs view would be that the Company leaving the VAT Group would either have to register for VAT itself (hitting the same problem) or, put simply, have to pay VAT on the value of its assets - so back to square one.

    An idea that might work would be a subsidiary which remains a subsidiary with WSRplc having at least 51% control. Then a VAT group could be formed. Not sure how that would work in respect of raising the moeny for WSRplc funds.

    Steven
     
  17. gwilialan

    gwilialan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    2,382
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Instrumentation, Control & Automation Engineer
    Location:
    East Sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Oh really? You might consider how many of "...the rest..." could be looking at giving financial support in one form or another to the railway and are completely aghast at the way things are currently being handled. They might be far more inclined to do so if only the Plc and the WSRA could actually get their act together so that potential donors could actually see positive things happening and hear definitive answers to reasonable questions from the railway as a whole.

    Would it have been so difficult for the Plc to talk to the WSRA and then name the WSRA as the preferred buyer (if the WSRA agreed) as soon as they decided to sell 4110? You don't need to wait for formal board meetings to get agreement. There are things called telephones where board members can converse and form a consensus which can then be ratified at the next meeting. Joint public statements can then be made in good time by the Chairmen so everyone is aware of what's happening and we don't have to rely on sites like this (should we re-name this NatP leaks?) where half truths, rumours and opinions have to be filtered out to get to the odd grain of truth.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  18. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,690
    Likes Received:
    7,336
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Chartered Certified Accountant
    Location:
    North Yorkshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    That is the obvious way out - but I come back to 4110 Ltd having stated, as far as I recall, that at this stage all they are aiming to do is securing ownership of the loco - not necessarily restore it. Now undoubtedly H M Revenue & Customs seem to be quite open minded on restoration companies registering for VAT, but there are also plenty of long established groups that aren't VAT registered. The key is that, to register, you need to be intending to make supplies and be able to honestly state that is the case. It doesn't have to be immediate - businesses like property developers are in that position, but the Revenue could also argue it isn't actually a business. Again, a bit vaguer for VAT than if you were trying to claim Income or Corporation Tax losses!

    Steven
     
  19. huochemi

    huochemi Member Friend

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,867
    Likes Received:
    815
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    Thank you. I expected it would not be so easy.
     
  20. Barrie the Beer

    Barrie the Beer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2008
    Messages:
    654
    Likes Received:
    1,732
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Brewery taproom supervisor
    Location:
    Norton Fitzwarren
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    So 4110 Ltd might have had to swallow the £20k VAT the plc would have been obliged to charge when making the supply, with no chance of them being able to reclaim that amount? Academic now of course.
     

Share This Page