What a Lovely Man - Not

Trevor Roberts - I wouldn't widdle on him if was in flames

http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/daily-feature/wrong_side_of_tracks_1_3901207

 

I'd attempt to put the flames out with petrol!

Where do these bureaucrats get off?

 

I am still unclear having read the article. Is the space in the depot going to be filled up with the new trams and engineering works or will the space just lay empty? Obviously one answer will mean no space so it would be logical to ask the group to relocate.

 

The new trams have a brand new purpose built depot at Starr Gate which BTS (Blackpool Council) built without planning permission, and when they were roundly ticked off by a High Court judge had to hastily submit a retrospective application - which strangely omitted the intended additional accommodation for the retained heritage fleet.

This means that instead of BTS being able to decamp lock stock and barrel to Starr Gate, that they must now maintain the old and falling apart Rigby Road for the retained deckers - a mere sixteen cars, IIRC.

Accordingly there will be oodles of room. Shades of 1968 and the Black Fives here - Roberts can be "Woodhams" or "Cashmores" whichever he chooses - we know which saved the heritage railway movement!

 

My man (if you can call him that) wants sacking.

Stan

 

But Frank, just a few days ago you were nodding approvingly at a hard headed businessman who was allowing a heritage asset to fall to bits, putting profit ahead of pandering to the heritage freaks.

Or, to quote your own words

Consistency please!

Also, in your own words

Surely, what would appeal to Mr Roberts is another of your fully costed profitable business plans for this collection.

 

I'm not clear exactly what crime this guy has committed. There appears to be a contract between Blackpool Transport and LTT for the latter to acquire the trams for a peppercorn amount and in turn they were to remove them by the given date in November...............

"Eighteen months ago, we gave enthusiasts the option to pay a deposit and take the trams away by the end of November 2011, so we could prepare for the new system and focus on what we need to be doing. Most have honoured that and, in principle, they will be gone by the end of next month.

“LTT has reneged. The trams were given for petty cash amounts so they could afford to move them by low loader and our invoice clearly states the removal date. We never wavered from that one jot."


Now the LLT are crying foul. So I fail to see what Mr Roberts has done to deserve all the opprobrium?

I like a tram as much as the next man, but that doesn't give us the right to renege on contracts becasue we don't like the terms we agreed to.

Or have I missed something?

 

Steve - Yawn!!!

The building at Wansford is private property so no-one can make the man sell - your remedy is?

We are talking here about a public servant threatening heritage machinery in private charitable ownership - if you are happy with that sort of thing then I question your very presence on any board with preservation in its title! Personally I think there is a lot more than we are aware of here - but when preserved artefacts are threatened - including operational ones restored by public subscription, clever - clever comments like yours are beneath contempt - or are you now stalking my every post - because if you are, you probably wouldn't like me even if you could keep up!

Sheff - The trams at Rigby Road are by no means all LTT property - in fact Blackpool Civic Trust are involved - the Council are going to be stuck with Rigby Road for a long time due to their errors in not making room for their own heritage fleet at Starr Gate - so this really is nonsense, there's plenty of room - if Roberts was stupid enough to commit himself in writing this way - then he deserves what he is getting. He's gone for war-war. Jaw jaw was always the better option.

The last two weeks on the tramway is looking like a disaster - frequencies are a joke - three quarter hour waits - mustn't use the new stops - passenger shelters removed - refusing the tradition of staff passes over winter has caused an overtime ban - only trams with transponders allowed out - redundancies on one hand and recruitment on the other - frankly its a disgrace.

Just wait until next year - a fanfare of trumpets and look at my new Bombardiers, but will it be like the Voyagers at Dawlish - well.................... look how they liked sand and salt!

 

Can't wait. Looking forward to having a full tram service back after years of neglect. Bring on the Bombardiers I say (as a local ) and, if they have teething troubles well, we'll have to deal with it until they are ironed out. I want a reliable mode of transport that my arthritic hip can cope with easily.

I'll leave the posturing to those who do it and feel they know best.

 

John - I'm not ducking the issue and have no wish to fall out - but I have had a busy couple of days before i have had time to look in again.

If drawing attention to threats against preserved and unique machinery is "posturing" then I plead guilty - in spades! This forum is called National Preservation and I would have thought is the very place for such a topic. I have already said - there may be more to this - but until we know - Roberts' threat is in play.

I am also very sceptical as to whether the Bombardiers are going to handle a harsh seafront environment, with salt and sand often being blown at 30mph and above - electronic circuitry doesn't like it and Blackpool has had to deal with baptisms of fire when previous step changes were attempted -and fall back on the tried and tested -except this time they have sold it!

16 Flexxities have been bought at £2m a pop - 14 and you could have done a 717 with the entire existing fleet, and had heritage and operational insurance. The BTS plan is making life impossible for tourists along the north shore, yet all of a sudden crews seem to have been found for half term nights - where have they been all season? Once the Flexxities are in service, the existing fleet could have been marketed a la Melbourne, New Orleans, Prague and San Francisco - but is Blackpool, Britains best remaining seaside resort thinking that way - No! tourism doesn't seem to be in the game plan - crazy!

The new DDA platforms are at a common level with the existing fleet and there is a "step over" of only about six inches - It stood out a mile on the eighth of September when 632, 700 and 717 all stood together at Starr Gate and the "Frankenstein" former 1934 prototype 700 looked no more convenient than the other two. Why a retractable step was not possible defeats me - but possibly the bean counters had their eyes on a Euro grant.

There needs to be a clear statement what is happening after the 6th November to the trams stored at Rigby Road - all of them. This is 1968 and Black Fives all over again. There is one chance to get it right.

 

I wasn't having a pop at you personally Frank. What do you mean get it right though ? Right for who? Tram enthusiasts or the ordinary folk of Blackpool and the Fylde who want a reliable, modern and smooth service? Lets not knock the new stock before it enters service ! Lets also not gloat if there are teething troubles.

If the Gazette article that kicked all this off is accurate - then I agree with Shef. How did they get hold of the story in the first place? Who was whinging and did it backfire.?

 

San Francisco learned the value of its trams the hard way.
Back when I lived there the system was recovering from a retreat, the teams were seen as a public transport not a tourist attraction. the Witt cars from Milan were a watershed to save the system. The Boeing built cars were a disaster, the Breda cars saved the commuter route, but the F line running up Market Street with Witt trams from Milan proved a tourist hit, even if it only went from the financial district to the non heterosexual district ignoring just about every tourist spot there was.

From there they learnt, the Boeings were scrapped, Bredas arrived, but the value of heritage and tourism was recognised, PCCs from all over the US bought and restored to 1920-50's city schemes and the line extended to fishermans wharf, it is now a global icon.

Blackpool (San Francisco, New Orleans, Melbourne, Milan, Rio de janeiro, Lisbon and hong kong) have a unique historic tram system... Due to the nature of their cars... When Blackpool trades in the old for the new its membership of an exclusive tourist club expires. It's cars will be no different to modern commuter trams in any other city, at that point... Why are they bothering with trams at all? Back to my first line...Blackpool seems to have lost the value of its unique trams.
Now there's a few tourist towns in China that have English themes...maybe they may be interested.

 

John - I meant that on Sunday night everything in Rigby Road will be either Frankensteined or due to be widened - or surplus to Blackpool's requirements and therefore - for sale or to be scrapped.

Since Sunday 23rd it appears that Lancastrian Transport Trust per senior members had title to several trams transferred to them subject to those trams being moved by a given date. Roberts has now threatened move them, or BTS will scrap them - both untenable positions, but no-one is telling us unequivocally if this is right, and if there are trams at risk.

A clear comment as to the position is needed - and are non LTT trams included in this situation or not?

Are any LTT trams to be re-possessed by BTS for onward disposal? and if so - how and to who - there are people out there who won't see any trams broken up - if they are let in. Like Carnforth and Lostock Hall on the 4th August 1968 we need to know to take a stance! That's what I meant by getting it right - saving as many as possible if not all.

I don't deny that Blackpool needs good reliable transport - as does any town - but 717 was completely rebuilt at a cost of £100,000. Two less Flexxities would have done forty conventional trams to the highest standard, providing both a back up to the new technology if it goes down - and I reckon it will - and a true heritage fleet for the tourists.

The DDA card is a complete bluff. When 632, 700 and 717 were parked at Starr Gate new platforms on the 8th September the ease of boarding the old trams from the new platform was demonstrated. Its the old problem of being able to see straight through the king's new clothes again - and many of us can. Others are blinded by new and shiny.

715 to Beach last night showed what neglect is all about - 717 to Talbot Square showed what we are about to lose - all in the siren name of compliance.

Roberts and Co have taken us for fools all year with the substandard service offered - nothing north of Little Bispham, or to Starr Gate on a brand new serviceable tram road, can't use the new platforms - and deliberately leaving them 98% finished so that tourists stand there watching trams glide past - when there are trams, but worst of all not recruiting crews until last week leaving passengers standing all morning and all night - but for last week and the last week there are crews coming out of their ears. There is so much more that could be said - but we are written off as enthusiasts - not believers that things could be so much better - for Blackpool, for the tourism industry and for heritage. Its a poor do - and there's just six days left!

 

Thanks for that. I get the impression from the LTT website that they have, in the last 18 months, be hopeful for a reprieve or reversal of the 18 month 'move 'em out' deal with BTS. Now that that appears unlikely, do they have a contingency plan in place for that eventuality?