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Which loco do you think should be built in the future

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by charterplan, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    I wondered that too
     
  2. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Just guessing but insufficient funds for repair/overhaul?
     
  3. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Steam Railway reports and effective "split" in the ownership with problems at the latest AGM. Not for me to comment further, I wish them all the best and hope things improve for them and for 71000 as soon as possible.
     
  4. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Too much politics?
     
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  5. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Oh dear.
     
  6. stevepurves

    stevepurves New Member

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    Gresley A1, 1470. As built. 'nuff said!


    [​IMG]

    (then you can do whatever you like to FS)
     
  7. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    Wouldn't it still have loading gauge problems? And after all, it wouldn't be original - that's where the authenticity thing comes in. An 'extra member' of a class I think is different to giving a new loco an original identity unless you are VERY clear its a replica.

    If its not economic/practical to restore FS to running condition I'd rather see a 'late model' A3 built and FS retired with some cosmetic restoration back to maybe 30's condition - I doubt you could go back further than that. The poor old beast doesn't seem to have been treated with a lot of respect.

    The 2P was a good suggestion. At the other extreme a V4 would be very practical for modern conditions. Not too big for a preserved line but capable of serious main line running as well.

    I'd certainly think it makes sense to have older or smaller locos built - surely with existing locos and current projects we would have more than enough 'Big Engine' main line candidates?
     
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  8. 46118

    46118 Part of the furniture

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    In my opinion there are two different strands to this discussion. First will we get to a situation where the "batch" production of a class 4 or 5 locomotive, most likely one of the BR Standard designs is needed to support the majority ( but not "all" ) heritage lines who will need service engines that are easy to dispose, and maintain, alongside their older engines which increasingly would be "special event" steamings.
    Secondly there are those projects that aim to build previous classes of locomotives, ones that did not survive into preservation, but which depict a particular outstanding milepost in British steam locomotive development.
    I am certainly not going to start to name subjects for this latter category, others may wish to do so at their peril!!

    I suppose there are also two other categories; Firstly distinctive steam locomotives that are preserved, but are not currently in working order, and finally those projects that aim to recreate a class of locomotive that in itself is not distinctive or particularly of merit, but "completes a set", or is a personal favourite. Before we in any way throw doubt on particularly the latter category we have to remember that it is a free country, and individuals can spend their money on their favourite project as they so wish.

    I have tried to separate these different categories in the hope that during our discussion we do not confuse them. I suspect my second category is the one that provokes the most heated discussion.

    Personally I agree with the last line of the post above from pete2hogs in relation to smaller new builds.

    46118
     
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'd quite fancy a Stroudley D tank, especially with original Stroudley boiler - archetypal Southern Branch line engine, with a long and successful career, and ideal for many heritage lines. 125 were built, but none survived into preservation - the last were scrapped in the very early 1950s, probably about 10 years too early to have attracted preservation interest. Had history been a little different, maybe D tanks would have been on plinths outside Butlins and subsequently running on preserved lines, and we'd all be discussing those mythical "Terriers" that just failed to survive to preservation...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LBSCR_Stroudley_D_class_0-4-2_tank_locomotive_(Howden,_Boys'_Book_of_Locomotives,_1907).jpg

    Such a new build might even pass the "Paul Hitch" test :) (Only kidding, Paul...) They were the direct antecedent of the Drummond M7 class, and examples worked far and wide - 6 were loaned to the LMS and worked in Scotland during the war, as well as one being sold into private ownership in Lancashire.

    Out of interest, there were 125 D tanks - a lot for a small line like the LBSCR - but none survived. Which other locos had very big numbers (say 100 plus) but nonetheless didn't make it through to preservation? The LNWR Dx class must hold the record, but what else is out there that was widely built, successful but not represented in preservation?

    Tom
     
  10. Raised on steam

    Raised on steam New Member

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    A V4 would be a great idea
     
  11. Raised on steam

    Raised on steam New Member

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    I agree about poor old Flying Scotsman. Part of it's problem is that it is getting very old now and the fact it has lasted all these years is testament to what a great piece of engineering it is! However, unlike many other engines of similar age Scotsman has been thrashed very hard and long over the years. Maybe it is beyond restoration and should be cosmetically restored and displayed next to Mallard. To replace it how about a replica/new class member A3?
    The hard reality of running steam locos into the future is that increasingly the materials engines are built from will simply wear out and unfortunately nostalgia and authenticity will have to be replaced with practicality.
     
  12. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Oh yes it would indeed! One gathers that Stroudley designs were much less prone to frame troubles than their Billinton successors also.

    Not sure whether the boiler is interchangeable with that of the E1. The Isle of Wight Steam Railway will be building a new boiler for their E.1 (and have the dosh for this) so the design economies will be obvious if the two are interchangeable. Come to think of it why not just build another E1 as the IOW planned to do if the ex Cannock one had not been available.

    I remain in general a cynic regarding new builds.

    PH
     
  13. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    So do I for numerous practical, financial and ethical reasons.

    Campaign for Real Locos anyone? - loosely taking the style from CAMRA but aimed at protecting the pedigree and condition of the enviable collection of original items we already have many of which need TLC which will only be diluted in the future by the need to also look after fakes.
     
  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Actually I'd disagree. Arguably, the historic gems are becoming less and less historic, at least in their fabric, by virtue of being used, with constant replacement of original parts. Provided such locos can be stored in good conditions (which is another discussion) there is an argument that their pedigree and condition is best protected by not using them - which means constructing replicas.

    Tom
     
  15. Raised on steam

    Raised on steam New Member

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    You're right in the short term, we do have a lot of restored engines with a good fews years left in them, especially the later ones like 9Fs. Longer term, however overall you are looking at machines made from metal between 50 and 100 years old. Metal that was made in the days when available technology included impurities in the finished material giving it a finite life span. Eventually the metal will wear out. The engines that survive today were mostly never designed to last as long as they have without rebuilds or replacement by newer designs.
    It's easy to say 'no fakes' but the steam movement must plan for the future. Narrow gauge railways have built brand new engines and nobody complains about those.
    Why not have some kind of strategy about which engines are newly built. Rather than build an engine just because it is extinct or sadly missed, why not take the approach towards building a practical fleet of new engines to anticipate future needs?
     
  16. Raised on steam

    Raised on steam New Member

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    on a lighter note I have to add that I was more than satisfied by finally seeing an A1 pull into Newcastle. Something I never expected to see. As a resurrection that was very hard to beat!
     
  17. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    New builds of suitable locos for heritage railways to fulfil needs (but not wants) is probably a sensible way forward into the medium term future. However, I'd suggest that new designs are not a practical way forward. The design and D.O. work necessary would be considerable and the expertise to do this is going to be very thin on the ground. Anyone with steam loco design experience is almost certainly going to be well into his seventies.
     
  18. Chris86

    Chris86 Member

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    Perhaps it's not what should be built next but what modifications could be made using to existing locos that have apparently little chances of running? Super-prairie 38/28xx etc. Appearing as though it is a normal loco but incorporating modern refinements to draughting, lubrication, bearings etc. thus becoming a more sustainable proposition for longevity in day to day traffic?
     
  19. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    And do you honestly believe that say a Terrier actually still incorporates many if any parts which were part of the loco when first built in 187x?

    No - BR and its the companies before it replaced as necessary to keep the locos in service. We naturally continue do this with, in most cases, a high degree of attention to detail using authentic parts. Within limits this can be carried on indefinately & means that replacement costs are spread.

    Widespread building of wholly new SG locos for routine heritage railway use is well beyond the current or likely finances of our SG railways. Headline grabbing schemes have appeared to attract finance so far but as has already been pointed out actual completions can be counted on the hand of somebody who has already lost several fingers!

    Recent discussion with a leading light in an existing scheme indicates a real struggle now to accumulate more ££s with the job only about one third complete.

    It really is time to stop the dreaming!
     
  20. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    I am currently involved in the comprehensive overhaul of a loco constructed in the 1930's, withdrawn by BR in the '60s, stored at Barry for 15 years and then rebuilt to give a further 100,000+ heritage railway miles.

    When rebuilt ex Barry it was necessary to replace an amount of steel plate work with new due mainly to sea air corrosion.

    At the current rebuild the "new in the 1980's" items have needed further replacement due to the nature of modern steel - and its extra rapid corrosion characteristic together with problems found with it cracking!!
    The remaining original platework, probably dating from the '30s is still fine.
    Others have experienced the same problem.

    Don't be lulled into thinking that all modern materials are superior for locomotive use.
     

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