The Border Raider with 60163 - 16/09/17

Sorry for not replying earlier Sean. I was milepost side and my timing for 31 1/2 to 37 1/4 was 7m 3.21s.

 

Firstly wish I had paid the itinerary more attention as this was always going to be a good day out - that maybe got better as part of the re-planning, so for me an opportunity missed.
Reading the great reports about the performance it seems to me that this was an above standard performance for an A1 - if these logs had been published in 1961 Cecil J or OSNOCK as he's always been known in my family would have been full of praise for these performances. 13 on over Shap, Ais Gill and the Pennines = pretty good day out. It does seem to me that she was handled sensibly throughout - never fully extended as far as we can tell. BTW in conversation with several ex-drivers their view of fully extended was full open regulator and anything over 50% cut off - I wondered about this for a while and came to the conclusion (this is my theory for fans of Monty Python) - that most drivers linked up to around 50% from starting once the train was underway - typically 10-20mph - so anything more than 50% was seen as a starting setting - akin to first gear on a car - and they would not normally go back towards full gear from that setting when well on the move. It would really be seen as thrashing the engine and knocking it about. So if my theory is correct full regulator and 50% represents for most engines their maximum setting on the move - by that I mean above 15 mph - below that you are closing in quickly on the stalling point and adhesion becomes a real problem.

So my question is, and this may not be the right thread for it so apologies to the mods, but which engine can sustain full regulator at around 50% cut off (unmodified Bulleids sadly disqualified because who knows what the cutoff really is) and produce the highest dbhp or edbhp ratings? I would have thought it would be a straight fight between 71000 at its best and Tornado but I suspect others will have a view..... (possibly red maroon coloured)

Anyway congratulations on some fabulous photos (particularly the earlier one by the something buildings) and the videos and the top quality logging and reporting.

Best to all,

Mike

 

Typing up the return taking longer than expected, but here's the run as far as Long Preston. Power outputs to be added later.

On the day I was impressed with the start out of Carlisle, and looking at the stats it only gets better.

OK Tornado didn't have an all-out tilt at the Blue Riband section (MP 275 Ormside to 259 3/4 Ais Gill) but still topped Ais Gill in under 65 minutes from Carlisle - has anything done better with 13 on?

 

For the purposes of comparison, there doesn't seem to be anything immediately to hand that fulfils both of the two conditions of "pass Appleby" and "Load 13". Your own logs of the October 1995 Time Trials with DoG and 46229 over this section are the nearest I've come across so far. But they still illustrate the point about last week's achievement. The Carlisle-Ais Gill non-stop times for these contenders were 69m 16s and 69m 11c respectively - but in both cases with Load 11 only. But in fairness, both runs were beset by checks north of Appleby and I'm not sure what the true net times would have been for the purposes of a like-with-like comparison.

Comparing the 1995 (unchecked) times over the MP275-MP259 3/4 "Blue Riband" section, DoG with the 80-ton lighter trailing load was certainly the quickest at 16m 26s, and then 46229's time of 18m 38s, compared with last week's 21m 16s with Tornado. But in the larger scheme of things, Game, Set and Match must surely still go to Tornado on account of its performance on the June 2010 Border Raider when, according to Mike Notley's account in SR378, it whisked Load 13/ 445/ 480 over the same section in 18m 36s actual/ 16m 50s net after adjustment for a 33mph tsr at Griseburn, and in doing so developed 2,250 edhp and surmounting the summit at 50.5mph.

More analysis might conclude a less partisan assessment - I gather DoG had some superlative Load 12 runs over this section. So in the final analysis, its probably true that for locomotives and crews alike, these were/ are all outstanding performances fully deserving of the superlatives lavished on them.

 

Sorry its taken so long, but busy last weekend at the cricket, so I missed out on the ACE. Never mind. But I did get to see Moeen Ali get the second fastest ODI century, apparently. And Ben Stokes playing cricket, before he opened a new career in Boxing.

Back to the Border Raider, here's my log of the return. Probably never encountered so many mileage changes in a typed up log. Notifications of errors gratefully received. Hope its not all lost in the wood for the trees. Some very good running in there, without being thrashed.

I'll try to slim the logs down and will add the power outputs on the return over the weekend, but a few observations:-

Where's Mazeppa - thank you for your kind comments. Logs these detailed will never fit into any magazine, not even the Railway Performance Society's (RPS) "Milepost", but you get to see what was happening where and when (even if not much), and helps me condense things for the future.

Shireman and Big Al. Yes I take the points on board, hence my comments about Shap and Carlisle to Ais Gill overall, rather than focussing on the Blue Riband per se. Sadly we were robbed of a clean run up Grayrigg/Shap combined. Maybe next year?

Looking at the RPS archive, back in the day Cromwell managed a similar run up the long drag, but with only 9 on and with higher speeds (up to 80 mph) allowed on the easier stretches.

My first steam run eastbound over Standedge (and third in total incl diesel) so I've not got much to compare it with, but it seemed very assured. Brisk run to Crewe. Not quite its best up Madeley, but more than competent.

Am on the wait list for the Tyne Tees but will probably do the Ffestiniog Victorian weekend instead. Not been up there this year and well overdue a visit. Welsh Highland as well. I did help lay the odd bit of track after all.

Booked on the Chester trip in November, and Ebor in April. Exciting times.

Sean

 

Is there a log anywhere of Mr Hooker and 35012's run from Carlisle to Hellifield with the Solway Ranger on 13/6/64? Six Bells only has the scheduled times.

 

It's Table 85 in D W Winkworth's "Bulleid Pacifics", page 233. If anyone has a scanner and a copy of the book, please go ahead and reproduce the log. As I only have the latter, it will take me quite a while to type everything out, but if there is sufficient interest and no one else has a scanner, I'm willing to do it but probably not for a few hours as I have some other tasks to do (like do some work!)

 

While I have been checking this out, I see that John Petley has come back to you with one source. Rechecking the Railway Performance Society database, there are a couple of other potential sources where a log of this run has been published.....
1. Railway Magazine October 1964 issue Page 762
2. O S Nock "Locomotive Practice and Performance Volume 1" Page 266

In both of the above cases, HG Ellison is credited as the recorder. And for the record, the load on that run is given as 9/ 325, and the overall time from Carlisle to Hellifield 97 minutes 10 seconds.

 

A book which I have myself!

So relating to @Where's Mazeppa? post above.

9 on 302/320 tons

Recorder A. G.S. Davies

Carlisle
Appleby West 42 o2 sigs at Culgaith *20 then pws *30
MP 275 44 11 speed 73
KS 52 18
Ais Gill 59 48 speeds up Mallerstang 53, 50 at Ais Gill
Blea Moor 70 45
Settle Jct 83 10 sig stop

A very different railway in those days--- several maxima in the 70s between Carlisle and Appleby. Average in the high 70s down past Horton. But a fantastic run.

Edit Davies gives overall time to Hellifield 97m 11s. They were really sweating at Settle Jct-- out of water having not been able to top up at Carlisle Stn.