The last BR STANDARD GAUGE passenger locomotive?

Having looked at the 1955 Observers Book we find the Purpose of each to be :

MN's 8P - Express Passenger
WC/BB unrebuilt 7P5F - Express Passenger
WC/BB rebuilt 7P6F - Express Passenger
IOW O2 0P - Light Suburban Passener
Coronation 8P - Express Passenger
Royal Scot and Patriot both 7P (Patriots all 'rebuilts') - Express Passenger
Rebuilt Jub 7P - Express Passenger
_but_ standard Jub 6P5F - Express Passenger
Castle 7P - Express Passenger
A4 8P6F - Express Passenger
K1 5P6F - Mixed Traffic
Britannia 7P6F - Express Passenger

The F classification was used to show what freight could be operated if the loco was allocated to freight duties but was not intended to indicate that the loco was designed to work freight duties in normal use.

Therefore since the Britannias were working passenger trains after the end of steam on the Southern Region in July 1967 then I think the honours rest with the Britannias - which worked during 1968 - the last year of steam.

 

Maybe so, but its a very secondary source, and as noted above we know that the GWR built a batch of Castles rather than a second batch of 5'8 4700 2-8-0s because they considered the Castle were *more* versatile than the MT locomotive, and thus worth the extra cost to build and run. So its really stretching it to use those definitions, at least as far as the GWR locos, which admittedly are not germane to this discussion, are concerned.

As I've said before I think we're stretching for a definition that didn't exist in a rigid form. As far as I can see there was no hard distinction between passenger, mixed traffic and freight at all. I don't think head codes are much help, since Express passenger was used for all sorts of trains that weren't, shall we say, at very onerous timings. Its a funny thing this human trait for rigid distinctions. ALmost completely OTT I came across a web site dedicated to "prog rock" of the 70s, and there were all sorts of sub genres listed, none of which I had ever heard of: and I was there and saw most of the bands they're talking about!

Still it all makes for "pub conversation", which is, lets face it, what these forums really are, and what's wrong with that. Mine's a bitter please!

 

Hmm. My 1958 edition clearly states Britannia 7MT - Mixed Traffic. Perhaps we shouldn't use Casserley as a reference after all! :- :-k :-#

 

A4's,are they the last true Passenger loco? 1966....

 

Looking at Ian Allan British Railways Locomotives 1954 70000 BR Standard class locos are listed as being 7MT. But when looking at Ian Allan British Railways Locomotives 1964 70000 BR Standard class locos are reclassified as 7P6F. So I take that 7MT & 7P6F both mean the same mix traffic loco? So can't be called passenger loco then. It can only be called a mix traffic loco.
:-k :-k :-k :-k

 

Not quite. When originally built the Britannias were conceived as mixed traffice locos, being 7P and 7F (7MT). However, later in their lives there was a reclassification that reduced their freight rating to 6F.

Regards,

Dan

 

Error

 

As I pointed out earlier, there are TWO classifications. The statistical classification and the load classification. It is perfectly plausible that the load class for Brits was 7P6F and the statistical class 7MT. I will try to check this out.

It is the statistical class that determines whether BR rated the loco as freight, passenger, or mixed traffic. The fact that a basically passenger loco also has a freight load class is not significant, and it seems to have been down to regional differences - the ER seems virtually always to give a freight load classification, whereas the LMR and Southern didn't. Note it is also possible (if very rare) for a different region to give different load classifications to the same class, but the statistical classification was the same across all of BR.

I have reference books for LNER and BR standards, but I don't have anything for the LMS, so a Jubilee expert will have to dig around in the records to find out if an unrebuilt Jub's _statistical_ class was 6P or 6MT. The statistical class is always a single code, its never a combined freight and passenger one like 6P5F. At least, according to the RCTS.

 

I am intrigued by this concept of a 'statistical class' as opposed to the 'load class'. Please could you tell me which RCTS publication mentioned this?

Regards

Ps an earlier post of mine showed that in 1950 BR decided that the Jubilees were to be considered a mixed traffic class and should be 6P5F. The 6P classification remained on the cabsides for the duration.

 

Yes strange. My 1955 Observers book ,(page 23 )also clearly states 7MT for Britannia's. Second look on F Kerrs post .I O W 0-4-4T 1P (not 0P),there were no Rebuilt SR ,B.B/WC, in 1955.Jubilles 6pP not 6p /5F ,A4 s 8P not 8P 6F , K1 6MT not 5P 6F.Where there two editions of the 1955 Observers book?,Or one of us is wrong.

 

Delivered new in passenger livery with a name.
Used by B.R. on a timetabled express service The Red Dragon.
The LAST B.R. steam loco.

Also Cardiff Canton shed used Britannia's for Express Passenger work replacing Castles.

 

No. For many years they were rostered for the "Scotch Goods", which ran from Kings Cross (goods yard) to Niddrie (Edinburgh).

 

92220 was used by Canton on trains to Paddington until the hierarchy found out and promptly put a stop to it.

 

When the Britannias were introduced, they may have been nominally mixed-traffic but surely they were not expected to haul the typical freight trains of those days (i.e. loose-coupled, short-wheelbase wagons with no continuous brakes) other than exceptionally if things went wrong. The class 5 and smaller locos, on the other hand, would have been expected to work pretty well any kind of train within their capacity.

 

What about those with a fitted head then, which seem to have been a half way house towards fully fitted trains?

 

A revision perchance ?

The 1955 book (Page 23) clearly states Express Passenger but by 1958 the revised book states (at Page 241) Mixed Traffic; of the 3 Standard Pacific designs only the Duke of Gloucester consistently shows Express Passenger.up to its appearance in the 1964 revision but had disappeared by the 1966 revision. In that context 71000 was the last passenger locomotive to be designed but the Britannias were the last passenger locomotive to be operating - given the overnight move to Diss of 70013.

In terns of the rebuilt WC / BBthe first to be released was 34005 Barnstaple in June 1957 hence its non-appearance in the first 1955 edition of the Observers Book.

 

Jubilees which were at Holbeck until 67?

 

Resurrecting a 2009 thread; is this an NP record? Must admit is was interesting going back and reading some of the posts and remembering people no longer on here, 'Bongo' especially. His posts (and PM's) were always interesting.

Anyhow, back on topic, the last purely express passenger loco in BR service was 45562 as I originally said in 2009. Full stop. The only green locos to post date them were the Britannia's and they were definitely mixed traffic. For reference see the RCTS book on the BR Standard locomotives, vol 1 P21, which is well researched and wasn't available to us in 2009.

 

Quite, the OP hasn't been seen in a very long time.

 

Quite a lot of names have gone but there are some long term hangers on, as well.