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The last BR STANDARD GAUGE passenger locomotive?

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by James, Jan 2, 2009.

  1. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    Having looked at the 1955 Observers Book we find the Purpose of each to be :

    MN's 8P - Express Passenger
    WC/BB unrebuilt 7P5F - Express Passenger
    WC/BB rebuilt 7P6F - Express Passenger
    IOW O2 0P - Light Suburban Passener
    Coronation 8P - Express Passenger
    Royal Scot and Patriot both 7P (Patriots all 'rebuilts') - Express Passenger
    Rebuilt Jub 7P - Express Passenger
    _but_ standard Jub 6P5F - Express Passenger
    Castle 7P - Express Passenger
    A4 8P6F - Express Passenger
    K1 5P6F - Mixed Traffic
    Britannia 7P6F - Express Passenger

    The F classification was used to show what freight could be operated if the loco was allocated to freight duties but was not intended to indicate that the loco was designed to work freight duties in normal use.

    Therefore since the Britannias were working passenger trains after the end of steam on the Southern Region in July 1967 then I think the honours rest with the Britannias - which worked during 1968 - the last year of steam.
     
  2. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

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    Maybe so, but its a very secondary source, and as noted above we know that the GWR built a batch of Castles rather than a second batch of 5'8 4700 2-8-0s because they considered the Castle were *more* versatile than the MT locomotive, and thus worth the extra cost to build and run. So its really stretching it to use those definitions, at least as far as the GWR locos, which admittedly are not germane to this discussion, are concerned.

    As I've said before I think we're stretching for a definition that didn't exist in a rigid form. As far as I can see there was no hard distinction between passenger, mixed traffic and freight at all. I don't think head codes are much help, since Express passenger was used for all sorts of trains that weren't, shall we say, at very onerous timings. Its a funny thing this human trait for rigid distinctions. ALmost completely OTT I came across a web site dedicated to "prog rock" of the 70s, and there were all sorts of sub genres listed, none of which I had ever heard of: and I was there and saw most of the bands they're talking about!

    Still it all makes for "pub conversation", which is, lets face it, what these forums really are, and what's wrong with that. Mine's a bitter please!
     
  3. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Hmm. My 1958 edition clearly states Britannia 7MT - Mixed Traffic. Perhaps we shouldn't use Casserley as a reference after all! :- :-k :-#
     
  4. Alberta 45562

    Alberta 45562 Part of the furniture

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    A4's,are they the last true Passenger loco? 1966....
     
  5. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    Looking at Ian Allan British Railways Locomotives 1954 70000 BR Standard class locos are listed as being 7MT. But when looking at Ian Allan British Railways Locomotives 1964 70000 BR Standard class locos are reclassified as 7P6F. So I take that 7MT & 7P6F both mean the same mix traffic loco? So can't be called passenger loco then. It can only be called a mix traffic loco.
    :-k :-k :-k :-k
     
  6. Dan Hamblin

    Dan Hamblin Part of the furniture

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    Not quite. When originally built the Britannias were conceived as mixed traffice locos, being 7P and 7F (7MT). However, later in their lives there was a reclassification that reduced their freight rating to 6F.

    Regards,

    Dan
     
  7. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    Error
     
  8. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    As I pointed out earlier, there are TWO classifications. The statistical classification and the load classification. It is perfectly plausible that the load class for Brits was 7P6F and the statistical class 7MT. I will try to check this out.

    It is the statistical class that determines whether BR rated the loco as freight, passenger, or mixed traffic. The fact that a basically passenger loco also has a freight load class is not significant, and it seems to have been down to regional differences - the ER seems virtually always to give a freight load classification, whereas the LMR and Southern didn't. Note it is also possible (if very rare) for a different region to give different load classifications to the same class, but the statistical classification was the same across all of BR.

    I have reference books for LNER and BR standards, but I don't have anything for the LMS, so a Jubilee expert will have to dig around in the records to find out if an unrebuilt Jub's _statistical_ class was 6P or 6MT. The statistical class is always a single code, its never a combined freight and passenger one like 6P5F. At least, according to the RCTS.
     
  9. Columbine

    Columbine Member

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    I am intrigued by this concept of a 'statistical class' as opposed to the 'load class'. Please could you tell me which RCTS publication mentioned this?

    Regards

    Ps an earlier post of mine showed that in 1950 BR decided that the Jubilees were to be considered a mixed traffic class and should be 6P5F. The 6P classification remained on the cabsides for the duration.
     

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