Vanishing Carriages

When the VCT Carriage Survey Project http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/search.asp first went on line various magazines and commentators picked up on the reference to a number of carriages once preserved having disappeared without trace. Actually, quite a few could be explained by past published typographical and presumption errors and the carriage concerned had never actually be in the hands of preservationists. A few though had genuinely disappeared and no reference or person could be traced with the vital information.

The VCT survey contains details of carriages once preserved but no longer in existence in its survey whilst a listing with potted histories can be found at http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/carriages/index.htm?id=carriages/preservationdisposals Both the VCT and myself through the RCTS continually exchange notes and update these listings.

However, even now carriages seemingly disappear from preservation with no clues available as to what has become of them. In addition there are still a significant number for which disposal details are very vague or none existent dating back to the late 1960s and it is quite possible some of these do exist at some remote or very private location .

In this thread it is my intention to mention those where enquiries continue to draw a complete blank in the hope that someone might be able to provide the vital clue.

For starters, the most recent untraced disappearance on the list is SR BY 412 http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2620 This seemingly left what was then known as the Rutland Railway Museum, now Rocks by Rail, around five years ago but no one can provide any clues as to where it went. Often with such vehicles the wooden body is scrapped and the chassis used for a Victorian carriage restoration project but if this has been the case then it must be a project rarely if ever reported.

 

This vehicle is listed as moving to Rowley Manor, Croughton by November 2013. It appears to have been repainted as is reputedly on display undercover.

 

Thanks Chris for that excellent news. Its moving to Rowler Manor explains why it had become somewhat elusive. Worth mentioning that Rowler Manor is a private residence and there is no public access except by invitation.

Having had such rapid success with 412 I hope we can have the same success with the next mystery disappearance.

BR Mark 1 Passenger Brake, Gangwayed (BG) 80665 http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=5416 saw use with the Brtitish military at Long Marston and Bicester following BR service. By 2009 it had found its way to Long Marston and a new owner had work undertaken on it with the intention that it would become a summer house. Sometime after June 2009 it was moved by road from Long Marston to the former Bagworth and Ellistown station near Coalville where it was intended to take up its new role. Unfortunately it then appears that it became embroiled in a planning dispute with the local council and residents. As a consequence it was again moved by road but to where is a complete mystery. It may actually only have been at Bagworth for a few hours as one anecdote received suggests that the locals blockaded the site and would not let the delivery lorry leave without the carriage. It is possible the carriage went from Bagworth to a scrap yard and met with the cutters torch. However, it is understood quite a lot of work had been done on it at Long Marston so use as a summer house at another location would seem more likely. Does anyone know for sure what became of 80665 or can anyone shed any more light on to the very sad story of its proposed use at Bagworth?

 

I can't answer your query above but I have been had email discussions with you in the past regarding this Gresley designed CL detailed in your update on the RCTS site:

CL 88026 Originally numbered 32455. Transferred to Departmental service as DE321015. Preserved at South Yorkshire Railway Preservation Society, Chapeltown, South Yorkshire, then to Great Yorkshire Railway Preservation Society, Starbeck, Harrogate, North Yorkshire, then to Derwent Valley Light Railway. Acquired by Central Railway Engineering and stored at ?. Moved to farm in the Doncaster area where broken up c1999.

Was there actual confirmation that this vehicle was broken up? What I find baffling is that as far as I know the bogies nor any other items from the running gear were offered for sale to preservationists. The other mystery is who are/were 'Central Railway Engineering'? When at Starbeck and later on the DVLR at Murton it was owned privately but as the person was under pressure to do some work on it probably sold it on.

Also about the same time an ECJS body went missing http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2499 .
ECJS196 was reportedly purchased by Malcolm Ford and moved to Holme-on-Spalding Moor along with ECJS189.
However this never happened as the body was in poor condition and started falling apart during lifting. malcolm Ford confirms that he never actually took ownership of the body although he did get some bits off it that went into the restoration of 189. He was under the impression that it was subsequently recovered by the DVLR and moved to Murton. The DVLR have no record of this but this is where the story gets interesting. According to the owners of the farm at Deighton, south of York the body was removed from site by someone who intended restoring it. No further details are available so it is presumed to have been scrapped but there is a possibility that it is sat in pieces in a shed somewhere. If it is I would like to find it!

 

It will take me a few days to cover all the points. Thus a number of posts will appear. Anyone else who can add anything please do so.

For starters, Central Railway Engineering. This company was previously known as North Eastern Railway Operations Ltd and was incorporated 10/03/94. Its name was changed ti Central Railway Engineering Ltd on 17/12/1996. It changed its name to Central Railways Ltd on 8/3/99 and was ordered to be wound up by 13/05/03. However, it re-emerged as Central Railways Train Company Ltd t/a Central Railways being incorporated on 06/02/02 and ordered to be wound up on 10/05/06. It was though for all intense and purposes the same company with a Roydon, Essex address. The leading light appears to have been a Richard Oakley who I believe is known to quite a few who were involved in carriage restoration in the 1990's and early 2000's.

When I first came across the company they were acquiring early Mark 1s with a view to restoring them for mainline use. particularly dining and first class vehicles. This never came to fruition and the carriages they acquired are now either scrapped or with new owners. In the late 1990s they appear to have changed direction and started acquiring various rolling stock with a view to selling it on or scrapping and selling on the components. They were closely involved with Railtrack at one time in clearing the network of redundant vehicles that no one wanted to accept ownership of.

I have over the years chatted with Richard and although he has not been willing to divulge details of the businesses he has provided quite a lot of information about carriages that have passed through his hands. That is where the post Derwent Valley Light Railway details about CL 88026 came from. He would though never divulge where it was kept over than saying it was broken up on a farm near Doncaster.

 

Regarding ECJS196 this has never been on my radar. My only visit to Holme-on-Spalding Moor was in April 1996 when I recorded an unidentified grounded body, believed to be ECJS 189 http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2498 and a chassis, believed to be LNER 6450 http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2540 If it is true that ECJS196 was moved elsewhere I am not aware of it. I very much doubt it would be the type of thing Central Railway Engineering would be interested in. Has the possibility of it being connected with ECJS236 http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2453 been ruled out?

 

Thanks Peter. No the owners of 236 don't know what happened to 196.

 

Enquiries made today have revealed that the majority of salvageable items were acquired by the Llangollen Railway or carriage owners based there. The bogies were also sold on but it could not be recalled to where.

 

I was looking through our emporium of Gresley coach spares last Saturday, in search of a spare guard's door & I do seem to remember that some of this stuff came from Richard Thornton.

Bob.

 

Going back quite a while, nearly thirty years in fact. Back then some Mark 1 carriages and a 4-wheel LMS CCT (MCV) were located at Shamrock Quay, Southampton and used as business premises by Solent Rigging Services. During 1987 the LMS CCT, 37008, was taken away by road. All I have ever been able to establish is that it was removed by a Kent haulier who was taking it for use in a garden. It is presumed that the garden belonged to a railway enthusiast but even so no reference to it has ever been traced. Does this ring any bells with anyone?

 

Yes, carriages have been much more vulnerable to disappear than locos. The London Tilbury & Southend centenary special train in 1956 included 4-4-2T Thundersley and a nicely repainted LT&SR compartment third (No 283) - see for example http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/50s/560311rc.html
Thundersley has been owned by the NRM for years (on loan to Bressingham for most of them) but the carriage just seems to have disappeared - even before the VCT book/database.

 

I have a vague feeling that No. 283 was scrapped by Stratford works at the same time as Wisbech & Upwell tramway coach No. 8. No doubt someone can confirm or refute that!

 

I believe that it, along with the GER ex Wisbech & Upwell/ Kelvedon & Tollesbury tram coach used in the "Titfield Thunderbolt", were stored for a time in the late 1950s at Stratford and were photographed together there, I think by the late R.C. "Dick" Riley. Unfortunately a shortage of space caused them to join the many condemned wooden coaches there and they were burned.

 

GER ex Wisbech & Upwell #7 at the north Norfolk railway last year.

 

Taken from the M&GN http://www.mandgn.co.uk/page.php?pid=21

GER No.7

Built for the Wisbech & Upwell tramway and later transferred to the Kelvedon & Tollesbury branch before it closed, it then survived for 23 years as an onion store. Following transfer to two preservation sites, it was passed into M&GN Society ownership in 2002. GER No.7's sister vehicle, No.8 had a moment of fame in the 1952 Ealing Comedy, The Titfield Thunderbolt. Our No.7 has been restored with a replica bar, as per that fitted in No.8.

 

One missing vehicle that has interested/intrigued me is Bulleid Brake Composite S6713S.

Back in the early 1990s a friend of mine on the Mid Hants showed me pictures he had taken of this coach post withdrawal circa 1979 where it was being used to house a model railway and a collection of railwayana by a gentlemen on his farm in south Wales.

The photos I saw were of a shallow vented Bulleid BCK which had the set number 75 (if I recall correctly) still visible on the brake end (which would indicate 6713) the interior had a two or three of third class compartments removed to house the model railway and the one first class compartments had the seats removed and bookshelfs added, the other was as withdrawn. the Brake compartment had various totems/signs attached to the t&g boarding.

The coach was partially covered and backed into/onto a farm outbuilding where entry was gained via the corridor connection and was seemingly well looked after, I wonder if it still survives and would love to see it rediscovered!

 

I would be very interested to know more about this as it is something I have absolutely no knowledge of. If a more precise location can be provided (confidentially if need be) it can be quite quickly checked out.

Although I have built up a fairly comprehensive listing of preserved carriage disposals through the RCTS website http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/carriages/index.htm?id=carriages/preservationdisposals I am aware that some of the disposals inn the 1970's and 1980's are somewhat vague. Also, that it is possible a few vehicles were in preservation for a short period or at obscure locations such as that described above and have gone unrecorded. Always pleased to receive corrections to the list.

I do recall once being told that a Pullman Car was located at a remote location in the valleys of south/west Wales but was never able to substantiate that. I just wonder if that and this are actually the same thing.

 

I have now discussed S6713S with disposal guru John Hall.

S6713S was from Set 76 condemned 21/11/64 dispatched to Queenborough 5/12/64 consigned to Ardmore Steel Company (brass plater). Presumed scraped by Lacmots.

S6712S was from Set 75 condemned 31/10/64 dispatched to Queenborough 7/11/64 consigned to Peter Wood Ltd (brass plater). Presumed scraped by Lacmots.

I would have expected a South Wales scrapyard to have been involved rather that one in Kent.

Old Chap, are you able to make contact with your friend and obtain more details or even the pictures?

 

Does anybody know the whereabouts of the ex-Rowntree's GWR hopper of 1890s vintage which was sold a few years back by the NYMR (or the NYMR York Area Group)? I understand that it was sold to an RRM (as was) member but that the buyer then passed away. Did it ever get to Cottesmore?