Green Arrow

As an engineer I've lost count of:
a) the number of jobs abandoned half-done when the money ran out, and
b) the number of jobs which went over budget, after the original engineering estimate was slashed by people not understanding the job

The problem is that if all estimates were realistic AND included enough contingencies for everything which could go wrong, either
A) no job would ever actually start at all, or
B) some other firm would claim they could do it cheaper, and then sting you for variations later or deliver a half-done job

It's not as easy as just saying "people need to be realistic with their estimates". But you can forgive any non-engineering types for being utterly bewhildered and frustrated by the lack of precision at the start.

Credit where it's due for actually finishing Flying Scotsman, many organisations would have given up without finishing it, and if it had been some other lesser celebrity engine that's probably what would have happened. But I am not remotely surprised the NRM now seems reluctant to go down the same route again.

 

What a great post, but this is so true in business, in any area.

However the uncertainties that exist until complete dis-assembly are at the root of any estimate being wildly inaccurate, and then it is all over the floor of a contractor who maybe has offered the cheapest deal.

Many times cheapest is not best, and comes home to roost on a regular basis.

 

Which is why communication and respect of the differing expertise is so important between engineers and money men - and it certainly isn't a reason to 'not bother' with costing and scheduling work - having a time and money plan is perhaps even more important when things go wrong because it assists in making informed decisions about how to deal with the unexpected. The number of times I have been told 'we could get on with whatever if 'they' would let us spend £X' when I haven't even been aware of a problem or at least a potential solution and certainly not the potential cost and likely timing of the resultant output, while I have also suggested more than once spending extra money to achieve the desired output quicker only to be told 'I am not sure we could achieve that even with the extra expenditure, so I would rather not risk wasting the money'!

All such discussions are best had when a previous, if now outdated, plan and budget exist.

Steven

 

It is quite interesting watching this video made at Crewe works in 1936 where it follows a Jubilee locomotive being overhauled, and how exactly timed each section of the work was
It was almost like an assembly line were, a gang would have a set time to do their part of the work, the chargehand would blow his whistle at the exact time and a crane would lift it to the next bay.
The first gang would then start on the next loco and repeat the same on the next one



Parts also had to be repaired and ready to refit at exact times so they were ready when needed

The difficultly today in preservation is that everything is a one off with a small team having to do almost the entire loco, so if the first job is delayed it means job 2 starts late and then impacts job three etc

 

Amen, brother!
My favourite half-finished job was a pipeline supplying water to a very large southern hemisphere city. Due to budget cuts, they built Package 1 (intake and first bit of pipeline) and Package 3 (reservoir and end bit of pipeline) but cancelled Package 2 (middle bit of pipeline)... But at least they didn't exceed the budget!

 

The necessary outside steam pipes change the appearance of the front of the loco.

It's quite apparent from all of the threads in this forum that nobody bothers to look at the plethora of books with historical photos and other details!

 

Judith started her career working in engineering, including starting a machine tool company in her 20s, and moving on to work with a venture capitalist in the engineering sector where she led a diverse range of companies. So says the Science Museum website.

 

What a great clip. Boiling caustic soda, exposed asbestos wool and ne'er a hard hat to be seen. The 'move loco' whistle blast from the foreman is much shorter than the traditional 'all OUT' whistle from the Shop Steward!

With the discussion elsewhere about mileages between ovehaul, the given LMS figure of 120-150,00 miles is noteworthy, though I doubt the figure was that high for many of the inherited pre-grouping designs (cough.... Derby bearings).

When you realise many restoration projects have less active members with grubby hands than the LMS had to re-fit coupling rods, you begin to understand why the process can take so long.

If Swindon had anything like that "Colourdex" system, I'd love to know just how the 'scrap and build' trick with VoR 1213 was pulled off!!

 

I trust those who doubted her engineering expertise will now post an apology. Not that I'm holding my breath.

 

If it were me, after handing over a finished set of drawings I would expect quotes for a fully finish machined, with liners installed, 3 part assembly (no more monoblock) for under 200k. So you could probably say new cylinders for no more than 350k??? I would really hope so anyway!!

However, the drawings themselves would need to be brought up to modern standards and some cad models supplied, so that's going to be at least a couple grand more on top. Want to model the whole V2 in cad, that's a serious task, maybe a month or more of work. Outside clients looking to utilize company design engineers are usually quoted flat rates of around 500 quid a day. I of course see nothing like that in my pocket.

There is also the potential that you make a new cylinder assembly and the frames have deviations in hole placement. Bye bye budget. Its easy to make something to a drawing and have it dimensioned right, but is it going to fit this bespoke machine??

But that's not the real issue. Its the potential can of worms you open up when you take out the old monoblock and strip the engine back that is going to be a budget killer.

Indeed, an impressive resume for someone who is running a museum. And to play the gender card, even more so that this individual is a woman! Not that that matters, passion is far more important.

EDIT. Pulled from the NRM page. For anyone questioning her credentials, I suggest you keep it to yourself if you ever want to see a V2 in action, as this is one of the stakeholders you have to convince.

Judith McNicol
Museum Director

Judith has been part of the Science Museum Group for 13 years, based at the National Railway Museum. She has held many roles supporting both the National Railway Museum and the wider group, most recently as Director of People and Culture.

The National Railway Museum is close to her heart; her great-great-grandfather was one of many to die in the building of the Forth railway bridge. She remembers travelling across the bridge from a young age, in awe of its scale, beauty and the possibilities it embodied. Joining the National Railway Museum to work amongst the great ‘firsts’—Stephenson, Brunel, Mallard, Rocket and of course Flying Scotsman—was a childhood dream come true.

 

Making one cylinder, using modern pattern making techniques and a computer scan of the old cylinder to make sure the fitting bolts are put in the right place, would be considerably less than £100k, so a new monoblock should, on that basis, come in at under £200k and arguably even under £150k or possibly less depending on the 'breakdown' of costs - certainly, pattern and even casting materials will only be a proportion of overall cost and scanning and machining could well be less than 3 times the cost of a single cylinder once the block is set up on the scanner/lathe. Whether there would be a premium for making such a large single casting may be an issue, but I inclined to feel that it won't be that large for those who make such things - power stations, large ships etc. could all feature large castings, although they may be fabricated these days.

In theory, fabricating a cylinder is cheaper but it is prone to fatal distortions during the lengthy fabrication process.

Nut. hey, I am only a 'bean-counter', so could well have the whole thing wrong!

Steven

 

Has anyone actually volunteered the cash to give her a rebuild.....?

 

Regardless of whether replacement cylinders are made in one piece or three, they could still have the same arrangement of steam pipes as the original, if the consensus is to prefer that rather than the way it was done before for three separate cylinders.

You'd have to be very rich indeed or very foolish to offer a blank cheque. And offering £X thousand wouldn't be much good if the repair looks like costing £3X thousand. The starting point would have to be agreement in principle by the NRM to whatever is proposed (most promisingly making new cylinders in some form by some means and putting the old block on display) and a ballpark figure for the amount of cash likely to be needed.

 

I was just thinking we've had all this discussion but no one's actually offered.....

 

This 2014 post by @Anthony Coulls of the NRM says "When the V2 was preserved, locos were selected because they were the first/oldest/most original survivor of their class. Green Arrow was available so was selected. The single casting cylinders were significant but not the be all and end all. We don't know that they aren't repairable - there would need to be a survey with the loco dismantled, but it's not the Arrow's time at present."
https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/green-arrow.332507/page-2#post-934865

 

Interesting that Blodge are going the other way with their Fairlie bogies. AIUI, the reason being steam tightness over an extended working period.

Quite what this says about how far monobloc design has come since the V2 was designed, I don't know.

 

I'm guilty of re-starting this thread. See post #30, 6 pages ago