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1014 County of Glamorgan

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, May 22, 2016.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think you have to look at the chronology. With what is known now, a new boiler would seem obvious. But from reading the website, the decision to use parts from the 8F boiler had certainly been taken by late 2004 (see http://www.gwcountyproject.org.uk/pdffiles/InitialProgress.pdf), and was probably under consideration for a long period before that. Seen from that vantage point, the success of Tornado and a new, large boiler, was all in the future and far from certain.

    I tend to agree with you that in practical terms, the boiler is a mistake, and I suspect that even financially, the saving relative to a new boiler is probably fairly marginal, given how much is new anyway. But I guess you have to at least view the decision against what was known to be possible 15 or more years ago, rather than now.

    (What I don't know is whether there was any formal reconsideration of the boiler decision, since presumably a revised decision could have been made without having wasted any significant money right up to the point that surgery started).

    Tom
     
  2. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Very fair points all Tom. Hindsight being what it is. I hadn’t realised the decision to use the 8F boiler was pre Tornado - that does put a different slant on things.
     
  3. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Agreed but the closing point Tom makes is the most pertinent, as it seems inconceivable there were no opportunties after the original conception to re-evaluate the boiler options.
    Teeth have been gnashed many times over concerning the demise of 8518. This news does nothing to quell the anger felt in many quarters I daresay but there is no point reopening that old wound either. The other curiosity of course is 4901 losing its boiler with supposedly an 8F one to replace it - it could not be more far fetched if the whole thing were made up
     
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  4. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Whoah. This is what i would like to happen:
    • The group announces it would like to have a new 250psi boiler constucted.
    • All the tutters and head shakers, myself included applaud this decision and dip into their pockets
    • all work is ceased on the cut and shut boiler - presumably parts would be suitable for a new boiler, the old parts may well be of interest to someone who owns/repairs black fives
    • the necessary standards of construction, and steps to reduce the physical profile of the locomotive continue to be persued...
    In the long run the result will be a locomotive fit and capable of mainline work, and eventually, as long as such a thing exists, the ' newer' locomotives will I
    expect become the most sought after by TOC'S and there will be a county on the mainline
     
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  5. D6332found

    D6332found Member

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    But nobody bought the 8F frames and there was a Turkish 8F that no one wanted for the price being asked either.
    44901 is perhaps where Lazurusists should direct attention, before its the next big LMS disaster, after the 8F and the Crab.
    And agree; go for a new boiler
     
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  6. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Wholeheartedly agree but the only opinion I would add is that if "basket cases" are allowed to survive as intact as they are for long enough there will be someone, maybe even a generation or two later, who will benefit. Sadly 48518 and seemingly 42859 were not afforded that benevolence. In the 8Fs case there were some a little eager to see it broken up in my opinion but it's too late to wail now
     
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  7. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    I tend to agree, I think the boiler controversy will hang around this loco for all time like a bad smell. I doubt it will ever be accepted as a bona fide replica like the Grange or Saint, which also called for sacrifice of their donors but in a more acceptable form imo. I think with a shedful of genuine locos needing attention, the GWS has rather lost it's way
     
  8. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    From what I understand the barrel from 48518 has been sold on to Greg Wilson for use on his Barry state 8F. So it will have a new lease of life.
     
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  9. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    I don't see the point of that. Both will be badly corroded. A false economy.
     
  10. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    It's remarkable that all these major components of 48518 such as boiler, firebox, wheels, cylinders, axleboxes are seen to have a useful future incorporated into other locos, some even mainline, but not viable in itself. Suspect there is a bit of vulture culture in some of it.
     
  11. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    That's...that's mad, surely? Is the boiler barrel for 8518 really that much better than the on the Barry state 8F? Surely the boiler barrel from one won't directly match the firebox/inner firebox of another completely?

    In any event - isn't it easier these days to get the rolled steel required for the boiler barrel made up new?

    I know it's really easy to look at this with hindsight, and for that I apologise for going over old ground.

    I do hope the GWS is successful with this one. Not for me to criticise - I don't know the ins and outs as much as the rest.
     
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  12. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Perhaps preservation needs spare parts more than it needs wrecks? There seems to be no shortage of locomotives, only a shortage of operating locomotives.
     
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  13. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    The 8f frames on their own would be a hard slog to rebuild after the boiler, cylinders etc were removed, so it's not surprising that there was no interest. The Turkish 8f was not advertised for sale, and the price asked was rumoured to be well over the odds, so everytime someone raises the failure of this loco to sell, they need to remember the circumstances.

    Keith
     
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  14. D6332found

    D6332found Member

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    Have the frames definitely gone, or are they still in the undergrowth lurking?
     
  15. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Not sure how old they are, but there are certain pictures of the frames in the grass at Bury knocking around on the net.

    It always gets forgotten in the 6 monthly rush to batter the GWS on this that they only took the boiler, any subsequent dismantling had nothing to do with them, this picture (not mine I hasten to add taken from https://farm8.static.flickr.com/7159/6451855335_78c3c17fe9_b.jpg ) from Llangollen shows there was quite a bit below running plate which someone has benefited from and yet strangely there is not the ire about that every 6 months or so?

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Personally speaking I don't really care about the 8F to be honest, I just don't really "get" the county project, when they're not really building a county, just another variation on a GWR 4-6-0 that didn't actually exist.
     
  17. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    I think it is more the general principle of destroying one locomotive in order to make another. I feel the same whether it is an 8f, a prairie, or an industrial locomotive (i’m not super keen on butchering a class 58 or 37). I know that 48518 was the only surviving LNER built loco, but I don’t know whether this entailed any significant differences with say locos built by North British or Swindon etc.
     
  18. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    Odd way to try and justify it. I suspect that no one would have acquired any parts at all if the boiler had not been taken.
     
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  19. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Quite so and the acquisition process for the remains was all a little opaque. Not sure anybody has even publicly accepted responsibility for the frames being scrapped?
    As has been said, the boiler removal started the process and to a project of dubious merit. The rest was just inevitable vultures circling.
     
  20. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Okay let’s ask the question then.

    Why have the GWS - a great society with a history of an amazing collection - taken three different approaches to locomotive building/restoration?

    1) King - New driving wheels
    2) Saint - back dating a Hall
    3) County - use of a boiler that was never carried by the class but shares some vague similarities
    4) Firefly - new build

    I’m struggling with this guys. I support the GWS - without them preservation would be a lot poorer. I can’t just ignore the nagging doubts about the county. So much of it is good - the boiler question is going to run on and on I’m afraid. Sorry.
     
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