10A Carnforth MPD

Given that these structures have been out of use for many years due to their allegedly dangerous condition, perhaps the time has come for some enforcement!

 

I wonder what can be done. Aren't we talking about concrete structures built in a rush during the war, probably not with the very best materials? And when the technology wasn't that mature? Enforce a complete restoration on the owners and they probably go into liquidation, because wouldn't the cost be in millions? And substantial numbers of millions too I bet.

Don't know if this link will work, but it talks about conservation area strategy for the site.

https://www.lancaster.gov.uk/GetAsset.aspx?id=fAA4ADUANQA4AHwAfABUAHIAdQBlAHwAfAAwAHwA0

 

It's all too easy to bandy around figures of "many millions" and thus dismiss the possibility of anything ever being done without even trying, but the reality is that nobody really knows what costs are likely to be involved. The first thing that should be done, therefore, is a proper survey and costing of the options so that an informed judgement can be made. As a last resort, I'd be happy to see the structures removed from Carnforth and rebuilt somewhere where they would be more accessible and better appreciated. I doubt if most heritage railways could accommodate them, but somewhere like Barrow Hill or Bo'Ness might.

 

I doubt given the materials used to construct them that moving is a viable option.

 

Are they Concrete throughout or is there a steel frame/superstructure in there ?.

 

Looking on Google Earth. I see or what looks to be a concrete coaling plant at Immingham depot. Can anyone confirm its still there.


Cheers

 

I search on Flickr site, yes Immingham coaling tower still stands

 

If the shed needs repairs too then it could make sense to have a go at all three. If they're the last of their kind in the UK, some well-worded applications to the HLF might assist...........
Maybe arrange some more open days to help bring in a few more funds

 

They are not sectional buildings if that's what you have in mind. Reinforced Concrete. Cast in-situ around a framework of what's commonly known as "Rebar". Water gets in, rebar goes rusty, rust expands, concrete starts to pop off. Derby Station platform roofs had to be replaced because of this problem. Bits of spaghetti junction have needed attention due to this problem recently due to salt ingress compounding the problem.

 

Noting the suggestion that HLF funding could be a money source then that would surely only be available if the restored item(s) were accessible to the public. Given that the WCRC site at Carnforth is a commercial site with public access restrictions then I suggest that HLF Funding is a non-starter.

 

Totally agree RalphW, how anybody thinks a grant application could be pulled together for something that would in effect be impossible to return to action completely, due to concrete rot is a fallacy.

The fact It would support a site, out of access to all, for various reasons, defeats any argument, to try and preserve it, demolish it is the only option, on safety grounds for the rest of the site.

As you say, WCRC, have more important issues on their plate at the moment, if the sheds are the same, a major rebuild of the site could be expected.

 

A very depressing point of view from someone on a Forum like this.

The issue is that there are only two examples of this kind of plant in the country, and that at Carnforth is more complete than that at Immingham.

There can be no economic justification for keeping these, yet we will all be diminished if they are demolished - just as we would be if the Q6/Furness 20/Q1 (delete as applicable or insert any other unique example of its type) were scrapped.

That does not alter the fact that managing a structure like this is difficult and expensive, especially where it is located in a working site.

 

Don't think it is depressing, more realistic.

How much would it cost to restore to working order, how many people would benefit from it, how would people access it once completed, etc....

yes photographers would love it, but from a operational point of view, the JCB/loader option is more than adequate.

I have enough experience in grant funding to say that the chances of being successful are very low, because of those reasons listed above.

 

I'm absolutely sure that there is no interest in these structures from the owner of Carnforth and that he would not mind seeing them fall down and solve the problem, therefore their future, if they are to have one, will inevitably have to be be elsewhere. The GCR has ambitions to be a main line operation, it is due to have an NRM outstation and there are plans for a new loco yard. Moving these structures there would complete the picture.

I can see that movement might be seen as a problem, but I suspect restoration would require removal and recasting of the concrete to facilitate repair of the badly rusted areas of rebar - so the whole structure could be reduced to its skeletal steel form and then dismantled. In the course of rebuilding the opportunity could be taken to protect the steel (Sprayed on wax coating for example) to prevent problems in the future.

If re-erected as part of a wider engine shed scheme with other features (turntable, sand-dying plant etc) there would b a stronger case for grant funding.

 

I share that view - and having been involved in a project where a disproportionate part of the bill was for scaffolding at height, fully realise that any project to stabilise or restore Carnforth will be challenging at best, especially as the plant is no longer of real practical value.

That would not be good reason to get rid. Further, Carnforth was a museum, and the coaling plant an important part of that museum. That will compound the sense of loss. So is the fact that the Carnforth business is basically railway heritage based.

The second issue is that landowners do have an obligation to look after listed structures on their land - the listing means that they have an importance beyond the merely practical. I would hope that, if major expenditure really is required soon, the owner would look for a way to protect the site's heritage properly rather than see it as an opportunity to free up land and save money.

 

In other words, build a replica. A very imaginative scheme 61624, but, removing the concrete from the reinforcing steel-work would effectively destroy the steel. As described by Oddsocks up-thread, these structures were cast in-situ and unfortunately, they can only ever be removed as rubble and scrap rebar, very sad but this is the reality of the situation.

Cheers

Alan

 

I think the problem is, due to practicality as well as cost we can see a future where functioning/complete coaling towers/plants (as opposed to stages like Didcot) in the UK are next to non existent, given how big preservation has grown in the last 50 years, that seems a loss that we need to try and prevent happening, I'm not sure if the one at Grosmont counts or not, but the spectacle of a loaded wagon being hauled up the Carnforth one has been unique in Preservation and already is fast receeding into memory since it last happened, it would be a shame if that were to be lost forever, yes it doesn't offer much practical benefit, but then neither does restoring hundreds of non passengers carrying wagons and carting them round at Gala's.

 

These structures tend to have concrete with high alumina cement content, which reacts against the mild steel reinforcing bar, causing it to burst out with the result of splitting concrete. There is no repair process for this, barring full renewal.

Bob.

 

Not strictly correct, demolition is perfectly acceptable if listed building consent is granted by the LPA for the works.