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2020 Cumbrian Mountain Expresses

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by mike1522, Dec 31, 2019.

  1. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    If you think, Support, A, B, Kitchen,C, D, E, F etc, one way you will be fairly near the noise.
     
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  2. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture

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    If no diesel on as normal it certainly will be noisy Ralph :)
     
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  3. Julian Jones

    Julian Jones New Member

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    Thanks, Ralph - that's helpful.

    It leads me on to a question, though - perhaps you might know the answer?

    Thinking back to The Waverley (6th September) the total number of passenger carrying coaches was 9 (letters A-J, missing out I as usual). Together with the WCRC Brake, the Support coach and the Kitchen Car, that made 12. On this occasion, the ticket letter refers to A-K (total 10 passenger carrying coaches, again missing out I).

    So - will the total load be 12 or 13 I wonder? If 12, presumably that is achieved by having one WCRC brake / support coach rather than two. Is it the case that it is preferable to have two support / brake type vehicles, but it can be reduced to one if passenger loadings mandate an extra coach?

    Idle curiosity, really. On any view it should be a great day...
     
  4. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    It will be 12, I think. 13 would be over autumn guidance on loads for what is only a Class 7. Ideally it would be good if it were only 11 and arguably should be 11, reserving 12 for a Class 8.

    However, Carnforth knows what they are doing and the only tight bit is getting up to Carlisle in the window of time given.
     
  5. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Well-Known Member

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    Is it officially "leaf fall season" now or is that from the middle of the month?
     
  6. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Leaf fall season is from 15th Sept to 31st December. So a Scot with 12 (if that's what it will be) is on the limit, shall we say. But as I also said, Carnforth knows what they are doing so either way, it'll hopefully be a good trip.
     
  7. 30567

    30567 Well-Known Member Friend

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    Good weather forecast which caused me to visit the RTC website. Fully booked except in posh.
     
  8. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    As far as I am aware WCR are only using the single rake of covid adapted stock and tend not to bother splitting it, so I would expect 12 with K being the brake, but don't quote me on that. :)
     
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  9. Will RL

    Will RL Member

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    Two sets were out on 26th September equating to more than 12, plus two sets up in Fort William. I’d imagine WCR have kitted out quite a few of their coaches by now.
     
  10. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Sorry, I meant two in general use, but don't count the Jacobite stock as it's on a fixed job and not available for anything else.
     
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  11. Davo

    Davo Member

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    Just to ask about this post of curiosity why on coaching stock or loco shed codes is the letter i never used?
     
  12. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    No idea except that it can be confused with '1'.
     
  13. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Applying some logic to this, the CCE on 26/9 was the London set. The CME on Saturday will be the London set and that is a consist of 12. So I assume that's what we will have. As it may have been out of use for a fortnight that will be plenty of time to get it all spick and span...
     
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  14. black5

    black5 Well-Known Member

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    As Al says to avoid confusion with 1, its the same with seating in theatres, etc.
     
  15. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    CME 08 August 2020 – 46115 Scots Guardsman hauling 11+POB – Steam Thoughts from Home

    In these difficult times I am reduced to, but thankful for, the odd glimpse of mainline steam in my local area. I am also grateful to those of you who post photos, videos and reports. Graham (@1020 Shireman), despite being “masked up”, produced an excellent report and also posted a set of times – thank you, again. Graham is an experienced and demanding timer and was more than satisfied with SG’s performance when he thought that the load was 11; but when he found out that it was 12 . . . So was the performance excellent or just very good? I’m a man with not much to do and lots of time in which to do it.

    Railways rely on a train’s ability to run to time (or faster if circumstances permit). But when measuring the performance of a steam locomotive (as a machine) “times are times and fastest is fastest”. A simple time alone cannot take into account a load of 11 coaches versus 12 or a rapid start and slow finish or vice versa. Horsepower figures for specific climbs can iron out some of these wrinkles and are a good way of comparing locomotive performance. So how did SG fare? (The horsepower figures are equivalent drawbar values (edhp), speed v – average speed (mph) and time (t) mm:ss).

    Grayrigg – 1710 (v = 58.4, t = 13:21)

    Shap – 1730 (v = 54.9, t = 6:17)

    [On 9 April 2009 with the Glasgow bound leg of GBII, Gordon Hodgson coaxed 46115 (+11) to provide an average of 1750 edhp on the climb of Shap. @Big Al mentioned the fast overall time with 12 coaches (Gordon Hodgson with the Cumbrian Coast Express 12 April 2014). The climb of Grayrigg required 1550 edhp and Shap 1350 edhp; Shap was an example of a climb with a fast start but a slow finish, thus requiring less power.]

    Ormside to Ais Gill – 1580 (v = 46.1, t = 19:51)

    Ormside to Crosby Garrett Tunnel (S) – 1500 (v = 47.5, t = 7:35)
    Crosby Garrett Tunnel (S) to Ais Gill – 1625 (v = 45.2, t = 12:16)

    [The higher output on the later part of the climb is exactly as Graham described in his report; all twelve and a quarter wonderfully, ear-blasting minutes worth. On 7 August 2017, shortly before SG’s overhaul, I travelled on the Dalesman (12 coaches, Mick Kelly & Rob Russell) and witnessed the same “opening up” on the later part of the climb – even later. The overall climb required just under 1550 edhp; the section to CG Tunnel “only” 1370. From CG Tunnel to the summit SG averaged 1680 with most being concentrated in the last 3 miles – the final 2 miles of 1/100r saw an eye-watering and ear-bending average of 1790.

    On 15 Sept 2020, @Mick45305 travelled on the Dalesman (13 coaches, Mick Kelly & Rob Russell) and posted some times and speeds. Using these gives, Ormside to Aisgill – 1630 (v = 44.0, t = 21:30). The “opened out blast” of the second half of the CME climb was matched for the whole of the climb.

    Whalley to Ramsgreave & Wilpshire – 1480 (v = 37.0, t = 7:18)

    On 10 Sept 2019, fresh back from overhaul, 46115 on the northbound Dalesman (12 coaches, Mick Kelly & Martyn Soames) produced an average 1630 edhp on the 11.7 miles from Settle Jn to the B6479 overbridge north of Selside. From Helwith Bridge SG was opened up and, with ear-busting accompaniment, averaged 1790 edhp for the final 5.7 miles.

    On 16 April 2016 46100 hauled the Scot Commemorative on the southbound climb to Shap, (11 coaches, Mick Kelly & Chris Birmingham). Those of us lucky enough to travel witnessed an epic performance as the Scot powered her train to the summit with cinders showering down and a magnificent roar from the front. The climb averaged around 1700 edhp with a peak of almost 1730 near MP45. There was a video on the internet shot on the footplate; Mick Kelly was theatrically urging Chris Birmingham to shovel ever faster, more informatively Mick was constantly checking the water level and nudging the regulator ever closer to the cab roof – Royal Scot was giving absolutely everything.

    Historical references (John Powell)
    S&C northbound, 46117 + 8 – 1650 edhp
    S&C southbound, 46113 + 9 – 1680 edhp
    WCML (Betley Road to Madeley), 46164 + 16 – 1950 edhp

    So very good/excellent for a Royal Scot equates to 1630 to 1730 edhp and is dependent on the length of the climb and the average speed. Short bursts of even higher outputs are sometimes produced. Just as Mick Rawling seems to get the best from a Jub, Mick Kelly has the way with a Scot – not forgetting the firemen who “put in the very hard yards”.

    So what of the day? I assessed it as an A, but “The Algorithm” downgraded it to a C. I got on the phone to Gav (Williamson) who said that I could choose – so A* and SG is off to the University of Cumbria on Saturday. Good luck to all those on board – it’s been very wet and the leaves are falling.

    Please note, a longish post and I didn’t mention Coronavirus or Dominic Cummings – oh bugger!!
     
  16. dublo6231

    dublo6231 Member

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    I have to ask - as an individual who was on-board (and also lucky enough to be in the coach behind the support), does anybody know if the footage that Oswald refers to in the above statement is still viewable somewhere?

    Everything about that day was fantastic, with the glorious weather around the Cumbrian coast - that ascent of Shap just put the icing on the proverbial cake.

    Fond memories of better times - oh and apologies for the thread drift!
     
  17. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture

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    My video from the Coast is still available.
     
  18. Julian Jones

    Julian Jones New Member

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    Great post David - as ever - but a question if I may? Could you please explain how edhp is calculated?
     
  19. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    Thanks Julian, I use the spreadsheet on the Rail Performance Society website. I’ll send you a PM tomorrow with a little more detail.
     
  20. Julian Jones

    Julian Jones New Member

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    Thank you.
     

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