Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Ian White, Oct 31, 2017.
They all look the same though don’t they?
Egads man, do you wish to bring forth the wrath of the worshipers of all things copper capped?!
I’m just waiting for the other Martin to suggest it gets there via a rail tour that is routed via Reading West, Basingstoke, Laverstock north and south junctions, Romsey, Eastleigh, Southampton, Bournemouth, Wareham, Weymouth, reverse to Yeovil Pen Mill (piloted by Swanage U class), forward to Yeovil Junction, Exeter Central, St David’s (photo opportunity arranged with Sir Lamiel posed on an adjacent platform), Temple Mills, Cheltenham, Worcester and Kidderminster. There’s probably a market to do that several times per week through the summer with the tourist overspill from Oxford that absolutely floods into Didcot for nine months of every year ...
Thats one hell of a long way round
Thats taking the Great Way Round to extremes!
Just goes to prove that they all look the same - the tenders are different but not much else
Sorry, it had to be said.
Nice picture BTW
I lose track north of the Thames ...
I guess putting a second 4-6-0 on the front of a two coach train was done as a pathing move
Would that be kit-bashed out of a 'Hall' or a 'Castle'?
I still reckon something for the 7'-01/4" wouldn't go amiss. With the most impressive drivers of any British loco ever a B&E 4-2-4T would be the ultimate WIBN and just ideal* for a demo track a few hundred yards long!
*as you may have guessed, I couldn't find my list of polar opposites this morning!
Now here's a wicked idea. When 2999 becomes due for her first "ten year" strip down and overhaul [ok I know there isn't a ten year overhaul as such these days]. How about recreating another Great Western type? I was thinking along the lines of one these "Hall" class engines, as for a name I was thinking Maindy Hall 4942!
Hopefully "Specsavers" will be open again in March......
Or you could put the Saint's boiler on a Castle and recreate a Star, and then put the Castle's boiler on the Saint, and just tell people Churchward did it. Add a quick entry about a 'prototype' onto that unimpeachable source, Wikipedia, with a reference to a Nock book which doesn't exist, and no one can touch you.
There is in fact a chapter on that class in The GWR Stars, Castles and Kings, published in 1967. It is believed that, many years earlier during a period of temporary relaxation in his professional career, Nock had prepared sections of many planned volumes, so as to get ahead of his relentless publishing schedule. Where he had obtained his information about the "super saint" will always remain clouded in mystery; suffice to say that when he was preparing the latter volume, he found his earlier draft and incorporated it directly. The mistake went unnoticed by any of the staff at David & Charles until after the first production run had been printed; at that point there was no alternative than to add an erratum slip advising readers that due to a production error, Chapter 6 and Appendix 3 should be disregarded. However, due to those loose slips frequently being lost over time, most editions of the work still in existence have no such record, and accordingly it is prone to trip up the unwary, such as those editing Wikipedia.
The chapter itself is of interest for illuminating Nock’s thinking about locomotive design. More surprising is the errant appendix, which has eight detailed logs of performance of “Super Saints” between Paddington and Bristol, including numbers, dates, loads and weather conditions. How such logs were prepared for a non-existent class is still a mystery, and debate still rages as to whether it should more widely call into question Nock’s writing on locomotive performance.
WA Tuplin was unavailable for comment.
Isn't there a Churchward era weight diagram for a Std 7 on a Saint? So an upboilered Saint is obviously something Churchward envisaged, which means a Castle boiler to meet the weight restrictions isn't far away. Besides it's bound to be in one of Tuplin's books...
Oh yes you're right, I'd forgotten about that. Well that settles it then.
I've always treated Nocky's material with a degree of trepidation - Read as "interested enthusiast" rather than "Locomotive Engineer"...
Tuplin I just can not get on with, I gave my copies of Great Northern Steam and Midland Steam away.
Should have gone to Specsavers
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Might gauging be a slight problem?
No, don't use a Castle boiler, which was a compromise to keep the weight down. While they're building the no.7 boiler for 4709, build another one and use that for the Super Saint. With bigger wheels than the County and the Halls, and therefore the cylinders a bit higher, the Saint should be a bit more gauge friendly, and the no. 9 boiler would give it some useful extra power. Also it is what either Churchward or Collett surely would have built if Churchward hadn't adopted the De Glehn 4-cylinder layout.
You are of course absolutely right. Dr Tuplin wrote approvingly of the "Super Saint" concept with the No 7 / 47XX-class boiler. He believed that such 2-cylinder locos should have been built instead of the 4-cylinder Castles.
Tuplin went on to outline his own ideas for a "Super-Super Saint", based on an enlarged King-type boiler. The same boiler was sketched onto 4-8-0 and 2-10-0 chassis - see attached. The cylinders remained in the Churchward low-slung horizontal position but the diameter was increased from 18½ to 22-inch, which would have made the Tuplin Super-Supers several inches wider than Saints and Halls....... Tuplin does not discuss whether that could be accommodated within loading gauge limits. Although LSWR Urie 4-6-0s had cylinders up to 22-inch diameter, their cylinders were inclined and at a higher level, and had frames inset at the front-end to allow the cylinders to be spaced closer together than on the GWR engines.
Although he seems to ignore loading-gauge width issues, Tuplin was conscious of height and drew these outlines to a height limit of 13ft 0in, giving them very stumpy chimneys and safety valve covers - no space there for much brass-work! He acknowledged that there would be concerns about heavy hammer blow from the 2 large cylinders, but suggested that could be managed by "lightening the reciprocating parts to the limit and by balancing less than the usual 50 per cent of their mass."
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