If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

4079 Pendennis Castle

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Davo, Mar 25, 2019.

  1. Platform 3

    Platform 3 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    827
    Likes Received:
    1,092
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I wonder what percentage of the mileage of non-Jacobite locos is used up in non-revenue earning light engine moves?

    Sent from my SM-J330FN using Tapatalk
     
  2. Mr Valentine

    Mr Valentine Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    815
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Titfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I'm afraid they do, on a single chimney engine, both the chimney and cab are too tall. The former can be brought into gauge by cutting the capuchon off, but the cab roof needs lowering by a good three or four inches. Double chimneys are fortunately just within the loading gauge. Also, I don't know if this varies between VABs, but based on experience with 6023, Pendennis would need both the ATC shoe and waterscoop gear removing.
     
    jnc and ross like this.
  3. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,703
    Likes Received:
    1,727
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Intrigued to know why the cab roof is different from a single to a double chimney?
     
  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,427
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    That’s not quite how I read the comment - rather, that on a single chimney loco you’d have to modify both the chimney and the cab; on a double chimney loco the chimney is in gauge but you still have to lower the cab roof.

    Tom
     
    Chris86, lil Bear, jnc and 5 others like this.
  5. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,703
    Likes Received:
    1,727
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Agreed after rereading a number of times :)
     
    Mr Valentine likes this.
  6. Mr Valentine

    Mr Valentine Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    815
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Titfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Yes after I posted it I did wonder if I ought to clarify, nevermind!

    PS Looks to be just under three inches for the cab roof. You can also gain a bit in hand by shaving off the rain strip.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  7. michaelh

    michaelh Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    3,080
    Likes Received:
    1,291
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Very comfortably early retired
    Location:
    1029
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer

    In the late 60's "Steam Centres" - Carnforth, Dinting, Tyseley, Didcot were perceived as the future for preserved steam. However, as standard gauge heritage railways got going the volunteers headed towards them and the "Steam Centres" got left behind. Didcot typifies this.
     
  8. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    9,635
    Likes Received:
    8,303
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alderan !
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Butchery implying changes that alter the look of the engine as with 6023 and 6024 . I’m not a fan of the cut down look on the kings , a little less regal
     
    Hampshire Unit and ross like this.
  9. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    Messages:
    2,751
    Likes Received:
    1,393
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It still has its scoop fitted?
     
  10. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    18,046
    Likes Received:
    15,735
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think the Echo suggested that in the case of 4079 they can adapt the cab from Maindy Hall to ML dimensions for fitting to 4079 and retain that presently on Pendennis unaltered (or something like that).

    Likewise, and its way outside my comfort zone, I assume 5051 has a ML compliant chimney so could they just swap out 4079/5051 for now?
     
  11. mdewell

    mdewell Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,653
    Likes Received:
    2,564
    Occupation:
    UK & Ireland Heritage Railways Webmaster
    Location:
    Ruabon, Wrexham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Yes, the latest Echo did say the original cab had been put aside and the one fitted was modified from Maindy Hall(?)
     
    Paul42 and GWR4707 like this.
  12. MikeParkin65

    MikeParkin65 Member Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
    Messages:
    585
    Likes Received:
    627
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Is the reduction in cab height a relatively recent requirement? I'm sure 7029's cab looks different now to its last mainline stint.
     
  13. Nick Gough

    Nick Gough Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Messages:
    1,433
    Likes Received:
    340
    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Back in 1987 I travelled behind 7029 on a return trip from Tyseley to Marylebone.
    The tour literature stated that 7029 was only able to do this route because the driving wheel tyres were almost down to the scrapping limit.
     
    MikeParkin65 and jnc like this.
  14. Mr Valentine

    Mr Valentine Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    815
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Titfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Others may know the full works, but I seem to recall that it was around late 2000 or early 2001 that the regulations changed. I believe that prior to this point 'grandfather rights' applied to a certain degree, however afterwards you had to apply for derogation, and a height over 13' 1" was no longer accepted. I think I'm right in saying that 5051 was the first engine to go through the derogation process.

    Going back to 4079, yes you could use the chimney from 5051, as it's already been trimmed down. There was actually a new 13' 1" spectacle plate made for 5051 but which was never used, which lay out the back of the works for many years, so you could incorporate that as well.

    I think the question of whether something has been 'butchered' or not depends on your viewpoint. In any case 'butchered' is a bit of a strong word. If it's purely a question of aesthetics, then obviously a Castle is not as seriously affected as a King. If it's about altering original material, then depending on how much you're willing to spend you can 'simply' make new bits. But at the risk of sounding like a snowflake, I think there's also an ethical question about modifying a 'heritage' item for a 21st century role, be it through changing its appearance, however little, or through introducing modern hardware which is clearly out of place. Personally I'm glad that there are groups willing to do this, so that people like myself can experience these things closer to their intended role. But the question remains over how many engines of the same type you can do this to before it just becomes an exercise in ticking off nameplates. Didcot is after all, first and foremost, an accredited museum, and not a mainline operator.
     
  15. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    979
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Nottinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Well this is the question - at what point do you say the modifications needed to be made to enable a steam locomotive designed for hauling express passenger trains on the mainline to continue doing so are changing the locomotive too much? I know some people who say merely fitting Air Brakes to steam locos that didn't have them prior to withdrawal is too much. Others (such as myself) are perfectly happy to have a loco fitted with Air Brakes, TPWS, shortened chimneys, lowered cabs and anything else as long as it looks pretty much the same as it did 60 years ago and pelts along at 75mph sounding great. One could also debate what the point of heritage is, to present something that looks as close as possible with as much original material as possible to a pre-defined point in the past, or have something which is able to do something as close to the job it was built to do?
     
    jnc and Matt37401 like this.
  16. Mr Valentine

    Mr Valentine Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    815
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Titfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I think this is why in an ideal world, it's best to have more than one example, so that you can cover all the bases and have an 'original' version, a 'mainline' version... etc.
     
    CH 19 and jnc like this.
  17. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    979
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Nottinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    What about those types where we only have one? Locos like the Duke, Flying Scotsman. Were they not already kitted out with air brakes, TPWS etc and a restoration were being started now, would we encourage extra kit being fitted to confirm to mainline regulations to allow them to run on the Mainline, or would we want them kept as original as possible and restricted to nothing faster than a TPO on the GCR at 35mph?
     
  18. Mr Valentine

    Mr Valentine Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    815
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Titfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    'In an ideal world.' ;)
     
  19. Mr Valentine

    Mr Valentine Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    815
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Titfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    But seriously, there obviously isn't a right or wrong answer. I think each organisation has to evaluate the issues for themselves.

    Although as a finger in the sky comparison, the BBMF's Lancaster was designed to be loaded up with 14,000lbs of 'stuff' and flown on a 1500-2000 mile round trip, but I don't think anyone would expect it to be subjected to that today, instead they're quite happy to see it just 'trundle' around the sky. (Can aircraft trundle..?)
     
  20. Kinghambranch

    Kinghambranch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,868
    Likes Received:
    1,588
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    White Rose County
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The Lancaster was also expected to have a life expectancy of around 3 weeks in WWII operational service before requiring major battle damage repair or Cat 5 damage (written off/lost in action).
     
    ross likes this.

Share This Page