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42424 - New Build Fowler Tank

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by steam_mad, May 21, 2015.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think that is a bit harsh on Bulleid. There's a category difference between the Leader (which was an unmitigated disaster) and the pacifics (which weren't). When all is said and done, the pacifics in their original guise did do useful remunerative work for the SR. The fact that, when rebuilt, about 90% of the original loco was retained (much more than in some rebuildings I might mention) suggests that fundamentally they were sound, and parts of them were excellent.

    I think if you added up his record on the SR / early BR(S) you'd find:

    - 40 Q1s, which were excellent
    - 140 Pacifics, which did the job they were required to do, but at somewhat greater expense and lower availability than contemporary locos elsewhere
    - 1 and a few bits of Leader, which was categorically a disaster
    - 3 mainline diesels, which were much better than many of the diesels subsequently introduced in the modernisation plan
    - 3 mainline electrics, which had long service lives
    - a large number of excellent EMUs, many of which had service lives of 40+ years
    - a standard carriage design that was undoubtedly the best of the late grouping-era carriages

    most of which was delivered against the effects of wartime economy measures, with three locomotive works all in the front line against enemy bombing (with concomitant disruption of production) and all of which were also engaged in widespread war work - not only building Stanier 8Fs, but also tanks, boats, guns etc.

    That's not a bad track record taken in the round. Not a genius in my view, but not a charlatan either. For Bulleid, the innovative (notably the Leader and the chain driven valve gear of the pacifics) has been both a blessing and a curse: polarising opinion but blinding people to the more solid, but prosaic, achievements away from those designs. What he clearly lacked was a wise restraining hand to temper his innovation with practicality. Hence why he was an excellent foil to Gresley, but made mistakes when promoted to be the boss.

    Tom
     
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  2. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    To my mind, Bullied's holy grail was a steam locomotive that needed much less prep and shed time. Hence his oil baths etc on both the Pacifics and the Leader. I wonder how the pacifics might have turned out, had it not been wartime and with access to more modern materials of construction (less said about the Leader the better). He was also the first CME to really think about the ergonomics of the cab, with the controls grouped appropriately for driver and fireman, plus labour saving devices such as the steam reverser (ok, not the best one) and steam-operated firehole doors, plus electric lighting etc. His cab layout formed the basis for the BR Standards of course.

    Having said all that, if you want to simplify the lubrication aspect, Gresley 2:1 and Stanier rocking levers get you a long way (not" inside out" a la GWR of course), and ultimately rotary gear, which still had plenty of potential at that time.

    So I'd judge his achievements more of a curate's egg that a total failure.
     
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  3. TonyMay

    TonyMay Member

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    To my understanding, Fowler was more of a organisation manager than a practical engineer. That is, his main legacy was reorganising the works to operate more efficiently. And locos were standardised on standard components which were mostly the work of his predecessor (Deeley) or his design team. So he'd say to his drawing office "draw a me 6-coupled class 4p4F passenger tank engine using proven standard components", and that is what he'd get. He wouldn't do any drawing himself beyond perhaps a sketch maybe. He'd communicate with the operating department to see what they needed.

    To anyone who has ever had inside an organisation, which is anyone I suppose, you can heopfully appreciate the value in having good management practices that make everything run smoothly and that such things are often only appreciated when management fials and everything goes tits up.

    It is probably under-appreciated today how much of a CME's job was keeping things running rather than designing new bits of kit because bits of metal are concrete and survive and are photographed but management practices don't, aren't and can't be.

    I'm not entirely sure where the folly Fury fits into this but I think that he had very little to do with the engineering of Fury, which remember literally went bang with fatal consequences.
     
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  4. 8126

    8126 Member

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    At the risk of continuing the interesting diversion, I wonder if the reason Bulleid got so much leeway with the Leader design was the SR's unusually poor experience with passenger tank engines. Of course, with hindsight we can say that the Ivatt 2 and something from the long bloodline of LMS Class 4 2-6-4Ts (see, on topic!) were ideally suited to retiring a lot of the pre-grouping classes. But look at what had actually happened with relatively modern passenger tank engines in the recent history of the SR at the time:

    The River tanks were right in the Class 4 bracket and after Sevenoaks they all became tender engines. The big Brighton Baltics had to be modified with partly cosmetic side tanks and a well tank between the frames to cure a similar problem; they also became tender engines fairly quickly after the Brighton line electrification. The later W tanks (basically small-wheeled three-cylinder River tanks for transfer freights) were tried on passenger work at a time of need but also found to be unstable. Even the venerable M7s had been removed from semi-fasts (one of their original intended duties) very early on after some derailments.

    So while I'm sure the SR board and management would have seen all the versatile tank engines out there (LNER V3, the LMS 2-6-4T variants, GWR Prairies), vaguely comparable machines locally had caused quite a lot of problems. The Rivers had even been tested on the LNER, where they had no issues, so no guarantee that a successful design from elsewhere would work. The tank engine problem may have seemed quite intractable; here's your new CME offering something entirely different.

    The weight is still ridiculous though. More all-up weight than a 9F, and it's not like they were lacking in adhesion. It's particularly odd in light of Bulleid's success in keeping the Q1s and light pacifics very light by contemporary standards. I also agree with @Sheff on the Bulleid valve gear in general. Roller bearings on the rods and rotary cam valve gear and you've got all the daily servicing advantages of Bulleid's oil bath and chain-driven arrangement without the massive inconvenience for repairs, or the oil leakage.
     
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  5. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Maybe, but the original joke about the Curate's egg was that anyone else who got it would have thrown it straight away.

    I can't think of another class, let alone two, so large and which had a business case for such major work so soon. You can certainly make a case that Churchward's Krugers or Bear, or Gresley's P2s were no better than the Bulleid Pacifics, but they didn't build so many of them.

    [later] If Bulleid had built say 10 Merchant Navies, stopped, said hang on, and then revised the design to be something mechanically close to what the rebuilds were but maybe still with the air smoothed boiler cladding I suggest he'd deserve the reputation he has.

    Its funny, there are a whole bunch of cultural references that have gone away with modern food storage and management. I wonder how many people on this forum have ever opened their boiled egg to find out it had been fertilised (for that's what a "bad" egg was youngsters). Never happened to me.

    But as a CME his primary job *was* to be the wise restraining hand, and exercise good judgement over what ideas his juniors brought to the table.

    Which was the CMEs job...
     
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  6. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    All very good responses gents, and quite fair in my view. I guess I am guilty of falling into the same trap regarding Bulleid that many fall into with Thompson: all his failures are his own and questioning his successes.
     
  7. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    This in particular sums it up rather well in my view.
     
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  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Agreed, which is why (in my view) he was an excellent lieutenant, but proved less suited to the top job. It's interesting to wonder what would have happened had Holcroft replaced Maunsell: he too was an excellent assistant, but we will never know whether that would have translated into being an excellent chief.

    Tom
     
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  9. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    I suspect maybe too much of a practical ideas man for the top desk job.
     
  10. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    Pretty well sums up my career, except I knew what I liked doing, and where whatever talents I had were best applied, so I spent many years avoiding the management job!
     
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  11. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    If Holcroft had Replaced Maunsell... would Bulleid of stuck around at the LNER to replace Gresley... No A1'S or A2's
    20 P3's and 50 odd P4's and an Apple green Leader....
     
  12. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I doubt it - too much ingrained cost control on the LNER.
     
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  13. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    In assessing Bulleids thinking and actions you have to realise that, at the time the decisions over the Leader were made, Britain had just come through a war and was bankrupt. Diesels were in their infancy and cost something like three times that of an equivalent steam loco. Diesel fuel had to be imported, adding to the balance of payments problem whilst coal was indigenous. Electrification was expensive from a capital cost so, whilst existing routes could be modernised, new routes weren't hugely practical in terms of cost. BR had the same constraints when it made its choice over new motive power. The Leader was a good idea in principle; a loco that needed less in terms of preparation, didn't need turning, was on bogies and could be driven from either end, all recognised attributes of the modern diesel. The death knell was having too many innovative things in one unit. His chain driven valve gear worked and was proven, albeit, with maintenance problems. He should have developed this with piston valves or some tried and tested rotary valve gear., perhaps even copied the well proven Sentinel engine unit. IMHO, it would also have had much more chance of success if the boiler had been more conventional, even if it meant continued use of stays. Was there really need for a gangway the length of the loco or could the boiler have been centrally placed?
    Hindsight is wonderful, though.
     
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  14. Thompson1706

    Thompson1706 Part of the furniture

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    Getting back to the Fowler tank, have we decided on a livery yet ?

    Bob.
     
  15. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Caledonian blue. :)
     
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  16. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Excellent. Would look good piloting a red 8F. ;)
     
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  17. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    The sleeve valves were quite unforgivable. Bulleid should simply have asked those who knew rather than adopting the "what a cracking wheeze" approach. I can recall my own grandfather observing that sleeve valved Daimlers had to be warmed up very gently on a cold winter's morning or else there was the very real risk breaking the driving lugs off the sleeves. Sound familiar? Not something suited to the rough and tumble of a running shed.

    The machining tolerances were difficult enough for the motor industry to achieve let alone railway workshops. I recall reading that spare sleeves for Panhard et Levassor vehicles were so thin in section they had to be stored in a particular way to avoid distortion. Panhards were better than Daimlers but sleeve valves were a device that even luxury car makers had difficulties with.

    PH
     
  18. Smokestack Lightning

    Smokestack Lightning Member

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    Out of interest, has any progress been made on the Fowler tank project? I seem to remember there was talk a while back of starting out on the search for drawings.

    Dave
     
  19. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    I haven't got the book here to check, but I'm sure I recall Cook saying in "Swindon Steam" that they had to back off on clearances for either pistons or valves on I think Halls et al because they ran into occasional problems with them nipping up due to differential expansion when cold.
     
  20. D1039

    D1039 Guest

    Nothing noted on New Build Steam wesite so nothing obvious

    Patrick
     

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