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4472 What colour

Discussion in 'National Railway Museum' started by 73129, May 8, 2008.

  1. beetlejuice

    beetlejuice Well-Known Member

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    To be honest Mark makes a very valid point and no it is not snobbery. Whenever I see large locomotives on a line that is usually a branchline I cringe. It's a reason I never visit the Bluebell Giants of Steam gala and will probably not visit the NYMR gala when Tornado is visiting. The only real mainline steam I have been behind was fantastic, ok I was in the support coach, but the loco was doing a job it used to do many years ago and being worked. If I ever saw Flying Scotsman on say a mid week turn at the KWVR(it's just an example I know it probably wouldn't happen) I'd be quite disappointed.

    Although many can't get up to York, local residents have certainnly used the Scarborough flyers when Scotsman was last running. These are relatively cheap and as such are not beyond the realms of most. They are also very well advertisied.

    Mark also points out the fact that you don't have to be a passenger to enjoy mainline steam. Many will just watch. No better way for Scotsman to go around the country then other than by rail? As long as it has route avaiblilty and is well advertised many more can see it then just at a preserved railway.

    Though it would be nice for a few gala's but still their relative expensive. I'm disappointed that it will be mainline only, with no chance to go anywhere else but lets just be glad its still even in this country?
     
  2. southyorkshireman

    southyorkshireman Resident of Nat Pres

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    Mixed feelings here, and I'm not convinced either side has cracked it yet........

    Yes on the mainline it is exposed to a far larger number of people who would otherwise not see it, There are a great many out there who catch trains / walk past the railway that would NOT go to a preserved line to see it.

    Similarly, whilst tootling up and down on 6 might not excite all of us, to the average family / tourist party the whole concept of Flying Scotsman on the front is heaven. Speed doesn't come into it.

    It has the potential to be THE most busy loco in operation. The trouble is as enthusiasts, we only want what is best for us. To be honest, the preserved line 'snobs' are coming across as badly as the mainline 'snobs' as you seem to have decided to label each other. You both make valid points, but neither of you are entirely right.

    Whatever happens it needs to be managed professionally, with a thorough clock resetting overhaul, which sorry will cost what it costs and take whatever length of time it takes. People need to decide if it means enough for them to foot the bill and get it done, or say that's enough and waste the money spent on it so far. and stick it on a plinth.

    Follow that with a comprehensive program of preventative maintenance and you should get 10 years out of it no problem.

    In an ideal world, Scotsman needs PR managing like no other loco, and needs it's entire schedule working out. Ideally, it would re-emerge dual braked, in whichever form provides the best compromise between performance from crews that don't spend everyday working it with a marketable identity that maintains the appeal it has with the general public. It is perhaps the flagship of preservation, about what it represents rather than what it is and not the one to start crying about 'authenticity'

    Ideally it should have a 12 month programme published, spending say a week at the WSR then a rail tour to the SVR for another couple of weeks work then a tour up to York to do a fortnights Spa expresses, with programmed preventative maintenance included in the programme to try and give it a 99% chance of sticking the schedule. It then has maximum exposure to as many different people who all want to experience diffeent things from it.

    Its not rocket science, it just needs someone who can rule with head not heart to have a pragmatic view. It could work. Just not whilst you lot sit their bickering that it won't do exactly what you want. Bigger picture and wider view needed by all of us
     
  3. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Part of the furniture

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    I think the mainline/preserved line debate is irrelevant - the main thing is that it could, indeed should be able to do both so that the maximum number of people can see and ride behind her; the general public and enthusiasts.

    Fair enough if the NRM dont want it to spend all its spare time working away from the great hall, but as a roving ambassador for special events it would draw in crowds like nothing else. If a few purists think thats awful despite all the extra revenue it would create, then they dont have to go, but then her less-than-ideal livery/chimney combination is likely to put most of them off anyway...

    Chris
     
  4. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    The 'purists' seem to love cutting off their nose to spite their face.

    Yes, its unfortunate that there is only one A3 still around so we can't have one in original condition. Blame Edward Thompson. (Because otherwise Great Northern would be sitting there alongside 1, 990 and 251).

    But if Flying Scotsman is to be saved at this enormous cost, for goodness sake lets have her in the best possible mechanical condition with all the mods that made the A3's so successful in their 'last fling', and lets run her on the mainline where she can actually do a proper job and remind people what these engines were all about - which is not trundling up and down a branch line at 25mph.

    I can't see the NRM letting her in to the hands of unfamiliar crews or putting her out 'on loan' as they have done with other, less public-sensitive locos either. There's a thread somewhere on why the 'mainline' owners have gradually got reluctant to loan out engines to preserved lines - the NRM is going to be at least as protective of this particular loco, surely we can understand why? I can see her preserved line running being limited to a few 'through' specials and gala appearances.

    She's been running 40-odd years since preservation, and there is no way after all the overhauls, changes of direction etc. that she is ever going to be 'original' - get over it. And no, I don't care if she's painted up as Gordon the blue engine, as long as she's alive and running.

    If we were talking about an engine like Gladstone or 990 that is in near-original or as-withdrawn condition my views might be different, but that is not the case. In fact, I wonder how much of the current 4472 was actually on the engine as-built - a few motion parts is probably it. And by the time the overhaul is finished only about 50% of it will have been on the engine as withdrawn by BR. That's what happens if an engine is kept running - it isn't 'original' for very long.
     
  5. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    Maybe we should have a poll on this thread for those for main line use only and those against main line use.
    But I'm not sure how you go about putting a poll on this thead.

    HELP.
     
  6. Kerosene Castle

    Kerosene Castle Well-Known Member

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    I'm surprised to see so much one-way arguing on here. Surely the whole idea should be about making the engine as accessible as possible to the general public, which naturally means that the engine would run on both the mainline and preserved railways. Ok, so one of those won't really be possible for the forseable future, but that's beside the point. It does seem to be subject to a lot of narrow mindedness though - I can see why Pete Waterman washed his hands of it!
     
  7. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Part of the furniture

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    That isnt the point being argued though - she's going mainline, period. The question is whether the NRM are going to persist in keeping her away from preserved lines by not fitting vacuum brakes, despite all the money spent and all the extra money they're asking for 'to do the job properly'.

    Chris
     
  8. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    There is another aspect to this, which KC has hinted at above:

    What happens if mainline steam running is banned?

    Suddenly the NRM is left with a fantastically expensive static exhibit. It seems a bit short sighted to not fit vacuum brakes, even if, for the first year or two they are not used. At least the option is there for the future.
    As someone else has pointed out, asking for extra money (a LOT of extra money) to complete the overhaul, while then saying 'oh by the way, you won't get a chance to see the loco unless you can afford mainline prices' strikes me as a poor deal.


    Keith
     
  9. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    I'd like to know what happened to all the vacuum brake kit - was it part of the purchase deal when the NRM bought the engine? Those LNER combined ejector / application valves can't be cheap. I suppose you could do a Tornado type job instead, but seems a shame as the original bits should be available?
     
  10. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    Why does air brake prevent preserved line running? First several lines have some air braked stock, and second there's no reason why she can't take the stock with her, as long as the line is network connected. But I doubt she's going to be loaned out to a line so y'all can get yer grubby hands on her :) . For reasons I stated above.

    I'd imagine the vac brake kit is long gone. See previous postings - it was completely stripped off the engine and replaced with the air brakes - I doubt at the time there was any intention to ever refit it.

    Joe public won't give two hoots what sort of brakes she has, as long as she has some.
     
  11. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Part of the furniture

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    Hiring coaching stock is hardly an attractive prospect for most lines, especially when it could simply be avoided by fitting her with the correct brakes!

    No they wont, but they would give two hoots about having the opportunity to see her at their local railway - premium priced railtours are hardly giving everyone the opportunity to travel behind her, and seeing her pass at 75mph, as fun as it is, does not make up for seeing and riding her at a gala event for most people.

    Besides, it is principally enthusiasts the NRM expect to fill the funding gap for the overhaul - i should think the vast majority would see vacuum brakes as a pre-requisite for any overhaul of her when its being described as being done 'properly' and with the next 30 years in mind.
     
  12. lil Bear

    lil Bear Part of the furniture

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    Sorry Pete, but that is a very short-sighted view. Most lines do not have air braked stock, only a selct few. Moving this stock between lines though firstly requires a mainline connection on both the lender and recipient lines, but also requires a ECS movement which costs money. If a line is having to pay the cost of the loco they wont be too keen in having to hire extra stock in. Also once hired though, only 4472 would be able to run with that stock as very few preserved lines have Air locos (unless thee is another mainline visitor).

    Your comment on Joe Public not caring what types of brakes, that is only because they do not have the knowledge to know the difeence. How many times when 4472 failed to appear on the SSE was it asked why couldn't Mallard or one of the other museum engines haul it? We know shes not in ticket and couldn't possibly work it, but Joe Public just see a steam loco and realise just how much effort is required to return locos to steam.

    If they were given the choice between a £25 round trip on a preserved line for a couple of hours in the day, or a £75 trip with early morning start / late night finish I think we all know what will be chosen.

    In addition, it has been touched upon with regards to the mainline scene. What happens if the day does come when steam is no longer allowed out on the National Network? There are people who don't want steam on the mainline, and nothing can be guaranteed in the long term. If such was to happen, what then for 4472? Very few lines would be able to handle her with Air only at present, and to be honest I can't see that changing.
     
  13. ipod

    ipod Well-Known Member

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    There have always been people who do not want steam on the mainline but it has never stopped it happening, it's nothing new. The fact that the NRM have faith in the future of mainline steam has to be seen as very encouraging and indeed, commendable.
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I don't think that steam can be 'banned' from the main line under the present open access legislation no matter what individuals want. What can happen is that it can be made harder for it to comply, effectively pushing it out, but this is more likely to occur on a busy inter-city route rather than a little-used line like York-Scarborough where I suspect Scotsman will spend much of its operational time
     
  15. GHWood

    GHWood Member

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    I think Anthony Coulls from the NRM said last time this was asked this question on in this forum that the museum don't have the vacuum brake parts as they weren't on the engine when it was bought. I suppose that means that they are are either still at Southall where her last major overhaul was done or they went for scrap quite some time ago (my money would be on the latter).
     
  16. Brider

    Brider Member

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    Excuse my ignorance, but is it impossible to contruct an air-operated vacuum-pump and a vacuum-operated air-pump which could be mounted on a support coach with all the necessary pipework to be able to mix-and-match?

    I look forward to seeing Scotsman being serviced and turned at Didcot during future railtours. I saw it there in October 2005 and the chance to walk alongside it to the turntable and photograph it from within the four-foot was quite unforgetable.

    Just imagine Scotsman and Tornado in matching liveries, double headed...
     
  17. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    Dear me.

    If we can't have it running on our local half-mile tramway in the middle of nowhere we're not going to put money into it?

    Perhaps it should have lots of holes drilled in it to make it RA1 as well.

    In reality (as opposed to in some folk's dreams) I think it is most unlikely it will end up running anywhere that isn't main line connected, and hence I think vac brakes are a moot point.
     
  18. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    The SVR, NYMR, MHR, WSR etc are hardly 'half-mile tramway's in the middle of nowhere'
    And yes the opportunity to actually see and ride behind the loco will obviously come into the decision to donate.


    Keith
     
  19. Avonside1563

    Avonside1563 Well-Known Member

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    Having seen the latest news in HR regarding the boiler perhaps this thread is a mute point?

    Another £250K needed to do all the necessary work on the boiler... would it perhaps have been better (with the benefit of that wonderful thing 'hindsight') to build a brand new one? After all the loco must surely be one of the best cases of Grandad's hammer so a new boiler wouldn't have made that much difference to its historical significance. :-k

    If it does get finished how about N.C.B. blue? (Prepares to duck \:D/)
     
  20. southyorkshireman

    southyorkshireman Resident of Nat Pres

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    No one seems to have commented on the extra £40K needed to finish sticking a bath tub onto Hamilton I notice.....
     

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