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4472 What colour

Discussion in 'National Railway Museum' started by 73129, May 8, 2008.

  1. Nigel Clark

    Nigel Clark Member Loco Owner

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    That tender handbrake never was much good !
     
  2. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    It's better now - redesigned and rebuilt 2004/5. Actually holds the thing at last...
     
  3. IKB

    IKB Member

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    Although the SR topic was supposed to be about 4472, it's been suggested the ensuing discussion should betransferred to this thread - so it is:

    Perhaps that's because the 'Swindon tat' just got on with the job, without making a fuss about it
     
  4. daveb

    daveb Member

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    The following was also in the other thread:
    There we have the memory of a six year old to whom Flying Scotsman simply wasn't Flying Scotsman as Brunswick green 60103. Like it or not, to the majority of the public who now own it, Scotsman is apple green and carries 4472 on the cabsides and LNER on the tender. They know it as such because that's now they remember it in its days with Alan Pegler and Bill McAlpine. We're talking about the best part of thirty years, longer than it has carried any other livery. To the public it doesn't matter that it has a double chimney, smoke deflectors or no vacuum brakes. There are probably only two locomotives where the public do have an opinion. The other, of course, is Thomas. Imagine how the kids would react to a black liveried Thomas with BR crest and 47001 on the cabsides?

    Given the choice, I would vote for 4472 in apple green, but with single chimney and no smoke deflectors. This wouldn't satisfy the "everything must be in BR livery" brigade, but I think most on here would be happier than with the current proposal. A spell as 60103 would satisfy the enthusiasts, but it would disappoint a far larger number of the public just like it did the six year old Stepney.
     
  5. southyorkshireman

    southyorkshireman Resident of Nat Pres

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    Just to throw a spanner in the works, a certain 8 year old went to see 60103 at the NVR and hooked up to blood and custard set was far more endeared to it than the Apple green thing with a pathetic whistle he'd seen at the MRC a few years previously....

    And then again the 21 year old a few years later that that was even more impressed by the Apple green / smoke deflectors flying through Malton with 13 on....
     
  6. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Until they face the northern hills then they make plenty of fuss and run out of steam. OK on the level and those pimples in South Devon but given a decent length to climb and they come up short.
     
  7. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Part of the furniture

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    As interesting as this banter is, it would be nice if this thread could continue about Flying Scotsman... ;)
     
  8. stepney60

    stepney60 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Agreed.

    Yes, but you've always been difficult, you have. ;-)
     
  9. 21D

    21D Member

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    BR express blue like 35005 was for while would look nice and be fitting for a loco which is itself pretty inauthentic for any period of it's working history. Personally I think the thing is overrated and not worth the stupid sums spent on it, but I know that it gives many others much pleasure and I am pleased that it does. Long may it continue as long as it does not leach money from other projects- not that it is I would guess.
     
  10. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    The trouble is people make statements like 'If its going to be apple green then it will only be accurate if it has a single chimney*. Sorry, but that's horse feathers - it won't be accurate for LNER condition even if it does have a single chimney.

    Let us please have it in apple green as most people know it, and in the best possible condition to do its job - which is double chimney and smoke deflectors. It is not in a normal sense a museum piece, its going to be a working machine - let us not hamstring it by having it in a less than optimal state to satisfy some misguided lust for authenticity that will never occur.

    To be mature about it, there is a real problem for the NRM, in that only a statically preserved museum piece is going to remain in anything like original condition, and yet to keep the experience of steam locomotion alive (and the necessary skills to support it) we must have working locos. In an ideal world we'd have a static and a working example of each, but we've only one A3, and so much has been done to it since it was originally bought off BR that it's already almost a replica of itself...

    So yes, it seems to me absolutely justified to regard FS as a special case for the 'general public' and there are plenty of other opportunities for getting engines restored to a more accurate representation of a particular period in their history to please the enthusiasts. For example, if you want to indulge your rivet counting gland then why not get up a fund for a proper tender for Stirling No.1 instead of the embarrassing thing its attached to.
     
  11. Spinner

    Spinner Member

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    pete2hogs,

    That tender coupled to GNR No 1 is what people expect to see. GNR No 1 has been coupled to that tender since (Gawd knows when) so that tender is a major part of GNR No 1's identity. It has been coupled to that tender for more than half of its life. It is the only tender that anybody, on this planet, alive today, has seen GNR No 1 running with.

    That tender is not an embarassment at all, especially to GNR No 1.
     
  12. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    Hmm. I seem to recall it leaking so badly it had to have a concrete base put in it.

    Actually, I somewhat agree, just making the point that there are other things that could be 'put right' (for some value of the word 'right') - and you've made the point that it would be equally controversial! There is no doubt the tender is totally wrong for any point in No. 1's service life, however, so as a museum exhibit it at least needs to be 'annotated' as being a post-preservation inaccuracy. I mean, all of the Piltdown Man was real bones, just put together wrongly.

    My post was really directed at those demanding 'historical accuracy'. Historical accuracy is a much more difficult thing to come by than some people suppose.

    Perhaps sometimes we should just be glad for what we do have!
     
  13. dalrypaul

    dalrypaul Guest

    I know that there's nothing new that can be said on this subject, but for what it's worth I will give my opinion, simply because if I don't then I can't moan afterwards ;-)

    To me, there should only be two real choices, Apple Green with single chimney, or BR green with double chimney and deflectors (forgetting about blue, pink, purple with spots, etc.).

    Personally, I think it should be the former because the majority of the public expect Scotsman in that livery and without deflectors, as it has run for the majority of its preserved 'celebrity' years. The deflectors spoil the rather elegant lines of what is one of our more attractive locos, and the bark from the single chimney was always great (IMHO). I don't see an issue with the performance as Scotsman ran perfectly capably for years in single chimney guise and I'd be surprised if it's general performance wasn't too far off a Princess, as opposed to perhaps a Duchess in double chimney guise (ok these are subjective and relative, before we get into a LMS vs LNER debate). The point is, this would do the job for the vast majority of runs it is likely to make.

    The only reason I can see for needing the extra performance and therefore justifying BR green and deflectors would be if its primary running would be long distance on lines like the ECML, doing trips from York to Edinburgh or Kings X, rather than lines like Scarborough and the S&C. However, this could impact on it's popularity because people may feel that it isn't 'Scotsman'. This is something I've heard from several members of public during its recent running period; they felt conned, claiming that it is some kind of 'imposter'. However, from what I've seen of previous overhauls, I still think it is perfectly capable of continuous 75mph in single chimney form.

    The arguments just seem bizarre for an apple green double chimney version. If the justification is that the public perception of Scotsman was as an apple green engine, which I believe to be the case, then it sure as hell wasn't with deflectors which do make to loco look quite different. I doubt if most of the general public notice the chimney, but the deflectors are obvious and radically alter the appearance of the loco and obviously it has to have deflectors with the double chimney. This is why I think the NRM have made a poor choice with their apparent decision to go for apple green, double chimney and deflectors. It just seems like double standards to argue that it should be apple green because that's how everyone remembers it, but then stick the deflectors on which definitely isn't how the public remember it (except for a small number of young-uns).

    So, for what it's worth, those are my reasons for stating a preference for single chimney, apple green. Not that it will make any difference.
     
  14. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    Well said that man.
    =D> =D> =D> =D>

    I was also under the impression that the NRM like to keep their locos authentic and putting a double chimney and smoke deflectors on her and painting her in apple green is not authentic for 4472. If the NRM are going down this road maybe they should reconsider putting a new two piece steam chest or a one piece steam chest for Green Arrow and putting her back in to service again a very popular choice of loco for most people.
     
  15. Stewie Griffin

    Stewie Griffin Member

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    Playing devils advocate, but surely the loco in apple green with double chimney and smoke deflectors does reflect the image of the locomotive while in the ownership of one of its previous owners. It just happens that previous owner was not the LNER, BR or and other pre-1968 railway company, but a private owner. Hell, they should have kept the A4 boiler while they were at it!

    Could it not be held up at the NRM as an example of how locomotives are often modified to ensure ongoing suitability for operation on the main line (air brakes, double chimney ostensibly added for performance reasons etc), contrasted with those which are stuffed and mounted and therefore do not need to undergo such changes?
     
  16. IKB

    IKB Member

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    Or held up as an example of how locos are stuffed & mounted - Would save the NRM a lot of money!!
    (Now where's that tin hat)
     
  17. NDTSDN

    NDTSDN Part of the furniture

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    Flying Scotsman in single chimney form was a true record breaker.

    I am unaware of any records achieved in double chimney format.
     
  18. dalrypaul

    dalrypaul Guest

    In some ways I could accept that, if the NRM had come out and said that was their reason. However, I think it is pretty weak. To me, preservation is about 'preserving' something from the past for future generations to enjoy. That means it should ideally be maintained in a condition from before it was 'preserved'. Of course, it's nice to see some variation, so a blue merchant navy was good to see, for a short while.

    Ultimately, the NRM can paint it any colour and in any condition they like, but the impression I get is that they are justifying the mismatch in condition/livery by claiming people remember it as an apple green engine, which I don't doubt. I am just saying that the public also equally remember it without deflectors and therefore by default in single chimney form. From a personal point of view, I'm all for a change and thought it made a great sight back in 1993 in BR green, and would welcome other liveries, but I still think it is more elegant in apple green without deflectors and definitely strikes more of a chord with the general public. Furthermore, in my experience, it made a better sound in single chimney form, something that shouldn't be underestimated, as I suspect the general public like to hear the steam engine as part of their experience.

    If it was down to me, I'd keep it in apple green single chimney form and then bring it out in other liveries / conditions for short periods of a year or two, perhaps towards the end of its ticket. That way you bring in additional revenue from the interest generated by those who want to experience it's new guise. Of course, that would only be viable if the alterations were feasible in terms of cost and timescale such that they could be performed 'mid-term'.
     
  19. John Elliot Jnr

    John Elliot Jnr Well-Known Member

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    Spot on! =D>
     
  20. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    According to Tony Streeter in Steam Railway, there was quite a sizeable gap (1959 to December 1961) between fitting the double chimney and the smoke deflectors? Could this be wrong? (Tony does tend to be amongst the most accurate of Steam Railway correspondents!) but these the dates were late enough for 4472 to run in any of its service liveries in single chimney form. If correct, they also raise the question of just how vital the smoke deflectors are if the loco ran for 2 years without them but with a double chimney!

    That said, it has run as an Apple Green A3 from 1963 to the early 1990s, longer than any other livery variety, and arguably made as big a contribution - as an unofficial "steam-flagship" - to "history" during those years. Railway preservation is frequently very poor at telling its own story!

    The conversion to double chimney seemed to be done quite quickly and presumably cheaply when the loco was already well advanced in its boiler ticket - how come putting it back seems to be so much larger a job?
     

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