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4472 What colour

Discussion in 'National Railway Museum' started by 73129, May 8, 2008.

  1. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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  2. Guest

    Guest Part of the furniture Account Suspended

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    So its wheel true - tyre very slightly askew, which can only have occurred when the wheels were last fitted with new tyres.

    Presumably tyre turning can return a properly perpendicular, and to gauge, wheel to rail interface right across the full rotation, albeit at a cost of some imbalance of tyre mass - which one presumes is de-minimis compared with the mass of the main wheel.

    I am no engineer - but I can see the principles
     
  3. martin butler

    martin butler Part of the furniture

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    what is the answer? does it mean that the wheelset will have to be re tired or can the tire be trued up by turning , and what impact does this have on the ballance of the wheel? if you turn the difference out I would guess that this has always been like it since the last time she had new tires fitted, can any say when that was, was it in BR days because then she would have just been just another engine and any fitting defects would have not been so important as they are in this day and age and if it was done since she was in private ownership then i would guess that it was not noticed or thought to not be important enough to be dealt with
     
  4. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Considering the likely stamping ground for 4472 in the future will be York - Scarborough which is a flat pancake, and unless the stance has changed i believe she won't be allowed on more testing itineries (say Shap with 12 for arguements sake), is the extra power/ effeciency created by the Kylchap Blastpipe & Smoke Deflectors arrangment really necessary if loads and gradients are unlikely to warrant it ?, true the LNER spec A1/A3 is inferior technically, but is it really such an issue trundling down the Scarborough in the 50's ?, 4472 needed this extra power in the Marchington era for 75MPH sprints and lugging 600 ton Pullmans, but it's unlikely she'll see such taxing work ever again.

    I wont deny my favourite would be BR spec A3 60103, but would settle for an LNER spec 4472 which i reckon would still be capable of Yorks requirements of it.
     
  5. Dan Hamblin

    Dan Hamblin Part of the furniture

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    I thought that 4472 was going to be allowed to do special tours away from the Scarborough route during the off-season?

    Regards,

    Dan
     
  6. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    It is. Many people across the country gave money to make it run and they deserve to be able to see it. We'll do that.
     
  7. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I did say Scarborough would probably be it's core route, not exclusively however, i'll hold my hands up and say im wrong if we see 4472 taking 9 to Plymouth or taking 12 over Shap, but i just can't see it being worked as hard as other Mainline loco's.
     
  8. martin butler

    martin butler Part of the furniture

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    one thing we can be sure of is that when she does come out, she will be A1 condition so hauling 12 over shap shouldnt be a problem for her mechanically but im sure that the NRM will ensure that she is properly looked after, ok, it maybe a few years later than everyone expected , but at least its being done right
    im sure that York are as annoyed about the delays and expenditure as anyone, but the state of the engine as purchased is hardly their fault is it?
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Part of the furniture Account Suspended

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    David - as was said a couple of weeks ago

    It ain't going to change.

    Get over yourself!
     
  10. Matt35027

    Matt35027 Well-Known Member

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    A1 condition as in fighting fit condition. Not 1923 condition.
     
  11. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Frank i think you misunderstand me, the deflectors are only required due to the soft blast of the Kylchap double chimney, the single chimney blast however is sharp enough to not require them, the test your talking of was the brief time it ran with double chimney and no deflectors and was rightly deemed unacceptable.
     
  12. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    Strange assumption. All the NRM locomotives that have seen mainline use have been worked hard, 46229, 4771, 4468 and others have been put to the task when required, so why should 4472 be any different? For those involved in the overhaul, they will only know how well they have done if the engine is worked to capacity (from time to time).
     
  13. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Other loco's are not 4472 which is quite obviously being treated differently, also i think you'll find Mallard was wrapped in cotton wool for the few years it operated, thank god the Duchess and Green Arrow were not pampered in such a way.
     
  14. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    Oh blimey not the cotton wool argument again....
    click....
    BANG!
     
  15. Guest

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    Not getting to you are they Anthony???
     
  16. tfftfftff86

    tfftfftff86 Member

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    Normally I'm in the paint-it-what-you-like camp. So if that's what York decide to do it's fine by me.
    However, where probably the most famous asset of certainly the world's premier railway MUSEUM is concerned, authenticity is an issue, and a very tricky one.

    People might think that it's straight choice between single chimney, no deflectors, apple green and 4472 - for an authentic LNER look.
    Or double chimney, deflectors, Brunswick green and 60103, for an authentic late-BR look.

    But to really go back to the pre-1947 look, the boiler dome would need changing.
    After the new dome was fitted, FS was still in LNER green but numbered 103. As 60103 it spent over 2 years in express blue, then 7 years in BR green with the single chimney, and only the four years before withdrawal with the double and eventually deflectors.

    Are the double chimney and deflectors really needed? Well, read this from Heritage Railway issue 82, written by someone very much in the know, about 4472's most recent running time in preservation.
    “There has never once been a shortage of steam in the 30,000+ miles covered (speaking of the last five years with the Kylchap blastpipe and double chimney) most of which has been done with very heavy trains and some quite severe climbs. There can be no doubt that the Kylchap exhaust system transformed these locomotives (A3s) from mediocre to top-line performers

    But the downside to the Kylchap was also mentioned:
    “We completed two consecutive journeys to Worcester and Oxford and back to London in the late evening, and on both occasions I personally observed what I already knew from history – that the drivers vision was totally obscured for forty seconds at a time at 70mph, a distance of more than three quarters of a mile”
    The deflectors went back on soon thereafter.

    So given Anthony's statement above (#366) about how the NRM wishes to employ FS, sooner or later they will have to opt for the double chimney, and without the deflectors, the NR safety guys probably won't pass it. Ergo, the choice is between an original 4472 tootling about on preserved lines or to Scarborough, or a beast in tip-top shape to take on the mainline 8Ps. Whatever the livery.
     
  17. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    Arguement? There are none so blind as those etc. etc. Some will never be convinced no matter how well the engine might perform. You can only compete the work as well as you can and then let events take their course. If it puts out VSOE outputs again there will still those who will refuse to believe these were achieved.

    How goes the wheel problem by the way?
     
  18. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Im just playing devils advocate really, and curious why an 8P beast is so urgently required for jobs that seemingly are within the capabilites of a 5 or 6P.

    I do find it strange some (from their posts anyway) seem to be getting heated with their opinions over this, you may have one opinion and i may have another, but im not going to lose sleep over the decision or fall out with anyone, expressing an opinion is what message boards are for and i respect other people/loco owners opinions, even if not necessarily agreeing with them.
     
  19. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

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    How about the colour and configuration mr Pegler intended, probably how most people remember it, get rid of that ghastly double chimney and terrible smoke deflectors.
     
  20. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    Back to the wheels. They can be sorted and we are on with it, was looking at them with Chris Beet and Rod this morning. Sorry for the short terse nature of my posts, we have a lot on at the mo, and moments at the keyboard are few and far between!
     

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