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45699 Galatea

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by TonyMay, Apr 3, 2010.

  1. 5944

    5944 Resident of Nat Pres

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    No, he does mean the Lickey! I'm sure someone will post the full details of it, but I seem to recall it was some sort of trial.
     
  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The maths doesn't add up!

    A Jubilee is 134 tons. 14 coaches at, say, 32 tons each (assuming pre-nationalisation wooden bodied coaches - and assuming they are empty!) gives a total train weight of 582 tons. On a 1 in 37 gradient that gives an approximate gravitational pull down the hill of about 15.7 tons, or 35,250lbf, against a nominal tractive effort at rest of 26,600lbf. And that is before you have even considered rolling resistance, or the fall-off of TE as speed increases above zero.

    The LMS may have tried it, but physics says no... Unless you are talking 14 * four wheelers...

    Tom
     
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  3. Big Dave

    Big Dave Member

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    He does mean the Lickey, read Terry Essery's "More Firing Days at Saltley and apparrently she achieved another prodigous feat one summer saturday but I have not read this one.

    As to the doppler effect I was just commenting on what I had heard when a young lad.

    Cheers Dave
     
  4. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Tom's calculation is inarguable. Therefore there must be something wrong with the story. Galatea may have taken a train of 14 coaches from Bristol to Birmingham, and if so the climb out of Bristol would have been memorable, but she couldn't have got all the way up the Lickey on that load without assistance.

    And, yet again, I wonder whether we have here enough thread drift to require splitting off into a new one.
     
  5. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Did some runs with 5690 in the late 70s/early 80s and her beat was very even. 1-2-3-4-5-6 rather than 1,2,3…..4,5,6 and no particular emphasis on any particular beat.
     
  6. andalfi1

    andalfi1 Well-Known Member

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    And I would like to know where you get 'Yorkshire' steam coal from nowadays ?
     
  7. 4472

    4472 Member

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    From the book

    "The two Class 3 pilots had by now rolled into position and I leaned well out of the side window to listen for their distinctive crow whistle while at the same time trying to regain some breath. The shrill call came clear and Galatea bellowed her reply and Tom heaved open the regulator. Turning both injectors off, I took a quick look astern to see that all was well and noted a tall column of sparks indicating that at least one of the pilots was trying hard. Acceleration over the first few yards through the station before we reached the base of the bank was impressive, but as we started the steep climb, 5699 settled to a steady ponderous beat. Almost immediately, I was obliged to put the exhaust injector on again and take up the shovel, for the regulator was now wide open and, although pressure showed a full 225, I had every intention of keeping it there.

    Half way up the bank Galatea was incredibly smooth at 50 per cent cut-off, showing as before no signs of shortness of breath. Then suddenly, without any warning she checked in her stride, as if some giant hand was dragging her back. Somewhat baffled, I glanced enquiringly across at Tom who, as calm as ever, merely muttered a few oaths of vaguely nautical origin. Loosely translated, these meant that he did not think the bankers were contributing much to the overall effort as of now. He was quite correct in this assumption; they were not contributing one iota, although of course we were quite unaware of the details at that time. It took a couple of weeks before the full story of what had occurred filtered along the grapevine.

    Apparently the fireman of the leading banker, while commendably enthusiastic, was still very inexperienced and had filled the boiler to such a degree as to cause excessive priming. This, apart from forcing his driver to close the regulator, also led to a simultaneous failure of the ejectors and consequential, if only temporary, application of the brakes. Despite rapid action by the driver, our fourteen coach train actually left the bankers (this was the snatch we felt) and it is to his lasting credit that he was able under such difficult circumstances to once again take up position at the rear of the train without so much as a shudder being transmitted to the occupants."
     
  8. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    No idea if this will work, but post #626 at

    https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/45699-galatea.23618/page-32
     
  9. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    No trial but an ordinary service train . Bankers dropped off and in Terry's account she took the lot on her own up the Lickey . I have it in front of me now . Working was the Bristol Sheffield Night Mail working. She was freshly outshopped. Standing start at Bromsgrove , banking assistance got the train going then banker primed and dropped back . Driver had her in full forward gear and full regulator. It is a fantastic piece of railway writing and I have a feeling Terry's brother vouched for the story on here at some point
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    From my reading of the account posted above (No. 281) that's not what happened. I read it as the bankers dropped off (due to priming causing the driver to shut off, and the brake of the banking engine coming on as it flooded with water) but the driver of the banker was able to make contact again and continued pushing after a brief interruption.

    That's how I read the bit:

    "and it is to his lasting credit that he was able under such difficult circumstances to once again take up position at the rear of the train without so much as a shudder being transmitted to the occupants."

    The 'he' in this context is clearly the driver of the leading banking engine (because who else was at the rear of the train?). That sentence doesn't make any sense in any other way except as a description of the bankers falling away but then regaining contact. Had they fallen away and stopped, the Jubilee would surely have stalled.

    Tom
     
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  11. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    From 4472's post of the extract from the book, the key sentence must be, "Despite rapid action by the driver, our fourteen coach train actually left the bankers (this was the snatch we felt) and it is to his lasting credit that he was able under such difficult circumstances to once again take up position at the rear of the train without so much as a shudder being transmitted to the occupants.". I take this to mean that although Galatea was on her own for a short period, the bankers quickly resumed their duties.
     
  12. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Facts now clear and definitely deserving of being moved to a separate thread.

    EDIT: PS - only I'm not at all sure at what point the discussion should be split off. Possibly all the posts that are specific to the performance of Galatea and other jubilees last Saturday or any other time.
     
  13. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    the text continues ....

    unfortunately the priming was so bad that we had almost reached Blackwell before he was again able to do any useful work
     
  14. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    And what about the second banker?
     
  15. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    expending its effort in pushing its ailing sibling !
     
  16. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    And the third?
     
  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Yes, but there were two bankers, so presumably one kept pushing all the way once contact was re-established, and the other was able to open up more fully once it had used up some water. (My understanding of operations there is that the bankers were not piped to each other, so the failure of the brakes on the first would not mean that the brakes came on on the second, nor the train).

    The account also states that they were "half way up" when the failure happened, i.e. about a mile - in fact probably beyond there, since "half way up" things were still going well. Allow a couple of hundred yards for the first instance to play out over, during which time the train would be slowing down, then the bankers re-establish contact with one still working hard, which is probably enough to maintain the (reduced speed); another few hundred yards (say a minute or so) at which point the second starts working hard again and that pretty much matches the description of "almost reached Blackwell". The Jubilee may have had sole charge of the train for a few hundred yards, but it would clearly have been slowing during that period, even if it the second banker could start offering sufficient assistance before it came to a complete halt.

    The bottom line is, a Jubilee could not take 14 coaches unassisted over a gradient that steep. Physics says an unassisted Jubilee could not take 14 coaches up a 1 in 37 incline, and to be fair to the author, the description doesn't make that claim - it is clear that they were banked for just about the whole duration of the climb.

    Tom
     
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  18. Avonside1563

    Avonside1563 Well-Known Member

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    A jubilee is recorded as having successfully taken a 8 coach train of 252 tons, including a dynamometer car, unassisted up Lickey as part of trials carried out in 1955. However it wasn't able to restart the train when stopped on the incline. So it would appear that would be near the limit of a Jubilee on a 1 in 37

    http://locoperformance.tripod.com/edition26/lickeyincline.htm
     
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  19. 83B

    83B Member

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    No No No. It cannot be possible. I think a Jubilee or any class 6/7 had a maximum load of 6 coaches without banking assistance. 14 is just not possible on its own. Never, ever. Sorry.
     
  20. 46118

    46118 Part of the furniture

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    Whether or not the maths say it is impossible, Essery does imply that for at least part of the climb of the Lickey, Galatea was not assisted by the two bankers, which had dropped behind.
    "Imperceptibly at first, but increasing all the time, the exhaust beats gradually quickened. The impossible was happening; Galatea was actually accelerating this huge load of 420 tons up Lickey with practically no aid from the banking engines!..."

    I'm happy to take Essery's words as fact. He was there.

    46118
     

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