46233 Duchess of Sutherland.

Not necessarily. When did any marketing guru suggest that an Oxo cube would sell better if it were round?

The motor industry knows a thing or two about marketing, hence the BMW Mini, Volkswagen and Jaguars that hark back to a familiar shape that brought past success.

Then there is the world of equestrianism, thoroughly traditional and immensely popular. No one has suggested that maybe a genetically engineered horse with an extra pair of legs or the addition of coupling rods between fore and hind would improve matters. Neither has anyone suggested that maybe a black horse will perform better than one of green or gold.

Does adding colour to milk make it any better?

Operas updated to modern settings can be enjoyable, as can the plays of Shakespeare, but the traditional productions are always preferred by the majority of theatre goers.

Do pink or black sails give one yacht the edge over another?

The Classic Car market prizes originality so go faster stripes on, say, a Daimler Conquest are looked upon with horror.

The immense amount of energy and hot air generated by locomotive liveries on this forum leaves most ordinary mortals baffled. It's as if every Tourette's Syndrome sufferer with Corprolalia has been kissed by a prince and springs instantly to life.

If Crimson Lake was good enough for the LMS then it should be good enough for the rest of us.

I have been involved with the railway industry, both BR and the world of 'preservation' for well over fifty years. In the case of BR, they painted locomotives as they saw fit and not always to advantage but that was their own business; they were, after all, the owners.

The owner of any particular locomotive can do as he damn well pleases with his property. He is quite at liberty to sell it for scrap. The fact that he and others strive to keep these immensely costly machines running is to their credit when compared with the childish outbursts by some 'enthusiasts.

A final warning. Do not go to the NYMR. They have Standard 4 Tank painted green. It just won't do chaps.

Meic

 

I think you're going off at a tangent to be frank.

Brand names and shapes are powerful - but you can still paint all of those in different liveries, after all.

I can say with the utmost certainty that this sort of ideology does go on in the Equine world - only it's about having Arabs and Dutch Warmbloods instead of Cobs or Irish Sports Horses and similar. Even the best of trainers can sometimes forget it's all in the training and horsemanship.

No comment other than I feel you are somewhat overstepping the mark with an inappropriate and ill advised comparison.

Except many people don't actually remember the LMS livery. That doesn't mean to say we can't enjoy it, but variety is the spice of life, and I am sure many people have donated to DoS who would have preferred her in other liveries at varying times.

I think you've rather missed the point of why people are miffed at the poll and the PRCLT entirely. It was the spin on the "year in a different livery" which is certainly not going to happen and I think many people correctly predicted the outcome. If it was as had been described originally, a democratic voting system with the certainty of a different livery (for a paltry year), then I don't think we would have had anywhere near the amount of impassioned debate this thread has stirred.

I believe said Standard 4MT is kept in BR Green on account of its first preservation era owner wanting just that? In short it serves as a memory to the man who took it on, and is no longer with us. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

A lot of waffle to prove absolutely nothing.

The past masters of railway merchandising - the A1 Trust know about refreshing the product - in spades - lets see how many want to travel or lineside every variant compared with something the same - year in - year out.

I haven't seen Mark Allatt running phoney polls that will onlyend up alienating those who are disappointed to pay for repainting

 

Not at all. I was disagreeing with the idea that you must keep changing things to be successful in the market place. I used Oxo as well known example but there are plenty of other brands that have kept their share of the market without the interferance of 'image makers'. Perhaps you have forgotten the expensive and disastrous attempt by Royal Mail to re-brand itself as Insignia. We all know where that ended.




[/QUOTE] Brand names and shapes are powerful - but you can still paint all of those in different liveries, after all..[/QUOTE]

Of course, that is the choice of the purchaser.

.[/QUOTE]Except many people don't actually remember the LMS livery. That doesn't mean to say we can't enjoy it, but variety is the spice of life, and I am sure many people have donated to DoS who would have preferred her in other liveries at varying times..[/QUOTE]

When you consider that the last pockets of steam, on BR, disappeared in 1968, you will realise that anyone who was around at the time at, say, five years old will be forty eight and there have been millions born and died since. Fewer and fewer people now remember BR steam in its pomp.



.[/QUOTE] I think you've rather missed the point of why people are miffed at the poll and the PRCLT entirely. It was the spin on the "year in a different livery" which is certainly not going to happen and I think many people correctly predicted the outcome. If it was as had been described originally, a democratic voting system with the certainty of a different livery (for a paltry year), then I don't think we would have had anywhere near the amount of impassioned debate this thread has stirred..[/QUOTE]
You will notice that I made no mention of the poll. Polls are often unsatisfactory to those who take part. For example, I voted neither Conservative or Liberal Democrat in the UK General Election but that is what I got. I did not vote Labour in the Welsh General Election but that is what I got. You, on the other hand, seem to be suggesting, at the least, 'sharp practice' where DoS is concerned. I have not taken part in the poll but if I had, I would just have to swallow the result whatever it might turn out to be. That is, I believe, the purpose of a poll.

Meic



I believe said Standard 4MT is kept in BR Green on account of its first preservation era owner wanting just that? In short it serves as a memory to the man who took it on, and is no longer with us. Correct me if I am wrong.[/QUOTE]

 

A Duchess will sell itself. Would you paint Mallard into anything other than LNER Garter Blue? Look at Scotsman, the NRM know that there's only one livery that represents the engine to the public and it's not BR green.

 

A Duchess will sell itself among enthusiasts. The wider British public have never heard of 6233 or any other Duchess, so there's no risk of confusing or alienating them if she appears in a different colour - if the A1 Trust are prepared to take the risk of a temporary livery change, im quite sure the PRCLT could get away with it. I really dont see the harm.

Chris

 

Hate to disagree Neil, but the black 4472 is doing very well for itself in terms of publicity at the minute (bar the sad and unexpected glitch with the hornblocks), in the wartime black.

Sometimes a change can be a refresher of sorts, certainly I think 9466's livery change has been a very positive one, as has 60163's, 6023's blue livery is a change from the norm and has done very well, the list goes on...but I don't think anyone here would have objected if it had been decided "crimson lake" from the outset, and without the poll.

The point of contention is the poll, and how they've gone about it, not necessarily the liveries in question (though for me, it is a factor, as I am cynical).

A livery change is not the same as a complete re-branding exercise.

Absolutely.

But you would not deny that more people remember BR liveries than LMS livery, at this particular given circumstance?

Let's examine that a little. You have absolutely no choice in what representation is available in those elections, yet the PRCLT had no real limits as to which of the Duchess liveries (other than Crimson Lake) could appear. In the end, they removed several possible choices, and left one - which would, if they keep to their word, a repaint after 12 months to go back into the same livery. That's clearly not the same as a general election. If I appear to be suggesting "sharp practise" then this is down to what I sadly suspect, on the basis of the way the votes have gone up and down over the allotted period of voting.

In essence, the cynics among us believe to some extent that because Crimson Lake was a choice, it was always going to win, and that the other liveries are in the poll only to pay lip service to those who have been vocal for some time as to the changing of the livery of the Duchess in question, and whether or not this was by entirely scrupulous means is up for debate. Certainly it does not breed confidence in the PRCLT.

Secondly, those who have "voted" (read "paid") for their livery to try and top the poll will be left disappointed by not only losing, but losing in what looks like externally to be decided from the outset. Far be it from me to suggest this is the case - the PRCLT clearly, by the work that goes into their website, blog updates, and on the locomotive itself, are decent and hard working people, but nevertheless the thought is there, and enough rather more vocal supporters of the LMS livery have soured the thought processes of ordinary enthusiasts with regards this engine and its potential liveries than might otherwise have been the case.

Certainly, it will be interesting to see if the cynics are proved correct with the final result...

 

I would paint an A4 in

Silver Jubilee Grey

Garter Blue

Apple Green

Black

B R Blue

B R Green

All authentic - all different!

Silver Link or Silver King again - will Jeremy Hoskins do it??? purrlease - pretty purrlease!!!

 

I don't like elections that can be bought, and I know which liveries I would like to see on the main line if a constructive management were to see the commercial and publicity benefit in ringing the changes instead of maintaining one unchanging stance.

They have already demonstrated to themselves the publicity value of a livery change - I wonder if in the final event they will run all four anyway with their preferred LMS red being the final long term variant.

 

Except that Mallard, as a 'product' would look meaningless in all of those except LNER garter blue because that it what the public identify her in. You could paint her up as 60022 and run her through York station 20 times a day and, my bet is, that no-one would pay much attention to her. Garter Blue is her trademark.

 

I suspect the income differences generated by a livery change for the big mainliner's are pretty minimal. They are going to get the work anyway and from what I can tell, 6233 runs a sensible amount of tours in a year and has a pretty loyal following that will ride whatever the colour. The impression I have gained is that the public seem to have a liking for a "big red engine", probably because it's a nice bright colour and provides something different to the large numbers of green and black locos, but they'll still ride whatever the colour if the price / destination are right.

I'll even admit to favouring the big red engines over anything else, but I'm very happy to see a change from time-to-time. I also think it is a good time to do BR Green, even though it isn't my personal preference - if it doesn't get done this overhaul, the numbers who remember BR Green Duchess' will likely be significantly depleted by the time the next ticket is up. The preservation movement relies on a significant amount of good will and I am sure a considerable number of people would really appreciate the change and be more likely to dip into their wallets if PRCLT require it in the future.

I am suspicious of the poll though, as I believe the vast majority of enthusiasts would vote for a change for a year or two. Why wouldn't you? This suggests that either large numbers of the general public are voting for the "big red engine", or there is someone with plenty of money who has basically said, "I'll match whatever you can raise from the alternative liveries in the poll by voting for LMS Red". The former seems unlikely to me; are people who aren't really into railways going to pay money to vote in a livery poll? If the latter, it remains to be seen whether LMS Red will win the day, or it is just a generous individual trying to boost the number of votes for other liveries and increase the totals raised for PRCLT.

 

At first, it appeared as a real chance to see 6233 in a different guise, enough for me to part with my cash. But, as time has gone on, too many doubts have crept in. Enough doubt for me, to now keep my hand in my pocket.

 

That is a very good point. I would love to see her in green as it will stir memories of my early spotting days in Lancaster (aged 9 -12). From a simple and common-sense point of view I wonder if scheduled re-paints in 3 different colours over the life of the ticket (similar to A1SLT) might have been a better way to approach the issue? A 'changing livery appeal' may well have brought in even more cash due to the certainty of 'your' colour appearing sooner or later?

 

Oi ! Don't forget ME - 'Silver Fox' LOL

 

Despite having been a member on this forum for a fair while now, it never ceases to amaze me how many arguments and debates unfold XD

 

Hardly seems to have been a problem with 60019's repaint though. She seems to have become very popular since she lost her BR green.

 

It's all down to personal preference though Neil. You can't make everyone happy - as we all know just trawling through this thread alone. I prefer A4's as I knew them - in green, but I love what they did to Bittern and went well out of my way to see it (and will do again).

 

Without argument and debate there wouldn't be a forum.