46233 Duchess of Sutherland.

I think that's a bit of a red-herring!

 

Errr - I took it to mean mature as in cheese - i.e those old enough to actually remember green ones in service.

If I were the cynical kind, I'd wonder why red was in the poll at all, as it is already stated that she'll be red in a year or so anyway. So manage the poll shrewdly and you get red from the off with a nice donation throw in. :whistle:

Personally I'd only vote if it were a straight blue/green/black fight.

 

You have a good point. It does seem odd.

 

Maybe the red option is on there to keep the BR camp voting - to see off the threat of it being red yet again as it were. If there was less incentive, there'd be much less voting and therefore less cash in the pot. So while it does seem strange, it makes sense as after all, the exercise is all about raising funds!

 

Or perhaps it's in recognition of the fact that some of us would prefer to see her in LMS red ALL OF THE TIME, rather on the lines of the 6201 Society.

And please, no personal insults; those who do prefer the red option are as entitled to their veiwpoint as the greens, blues blacks and pink with purple spots!

 

No personal insults - it's only a coat of paint after all - but does it not completely defeat the object of stating, and I quote:

The underlined portion implying something other than LMS Crimson Lake livery?

Do you not think to some extent a temporary change, one which in all likelihood won't be seen again on this engine, could at the very least appease other Duchess fans, and also help raise funds for the engine's overhaul?

Call me cynical, but it looks more and more like having one's cake and eating it.

 

Yes it would, but people vote for their personal preferrence, and LMS red is the choice of a number of people. I've no problem with you voting for yours, whatever it is, and if that's the majority vote, so be it. It's called democracy, and one of its problems is that no-one gets what they want all of the time. But as far as variety goes, we do have rather a lot of BR green locos. Red is a valid option.

 

To lighten the mood here, does it mean that if LMS Crimson Lake wins, will the loco be repainted again in a year's time (ie. a year after overhaul?)?

 

I'm not sure that it is, frankly. Bulleid Pacific actually makes a good point - will the trust stick to the letter of their statement that the locomotive will be repainted;

"after which she will return to the Trusts preferred livery of LMS Crimson Lake for the remainder of her mainline certificate" after one year in the same livery?

I would say it is undemocratic to effectively undermine any change, in favour of a livery that it will be painted in regardless, after one year of service (note, I am not necessarily stating it has to be BR green, my vote was/is for blue).

The votes do not actually tell us how many different people have voted for each livery either, which I think would be a most interesting exercise (in the spirit of democracy, of course).

 

But we have few BR blue ones.

To be honest it has nothing to do with how many BR green locomotives we have. 6233 is the only Duchess we have now that can carry the likes of BR green & BR blue whilst in steam. 6229 is hardly going to be unstreamlined now & 46235 will no doubt never steam anyway.

LMS crimson is a nice livery but the loco has carried it for almost its entire time in preservation. So i really cannot understand why the option was given to paint it in that colour given that it will carry it in 12 months anyway and has done for so long. A change is no bad thing and surely a loco in a different colour adds more interest into it. Look at 3850 for example, it was carrying an incorrect chimney with an incorrect livery, both have now been changed and it's proved extremely popular at the GCR hauling the windcutter set.

I really do not see why the LMS crimson fans can't just let there be a change for 12 months. The black she carried was very brief and 12 months will fly past for those people who hate BR liveries.

I realise liveries aren't everything when it comes to locomotives but i think it plays a very important factor when a group make a poll asking for money on it giving people a choice. LMS Crimson should not have been put in in my opinion, BR crimson maybe.

 

Much as I hate to get involved in a paint argument, if a livery is chosen as a result of a democratic poll, what is the problem with that? If LMS crimson is voted the preferred option and you don't agree with it the largest proportion under the poll; deal with it. Welcome to democracy.

 

Except this isn't a democratic poll - this is payola - a fund raising exercise and I have no problem with that - but it is pay as you go.

 

There is a valid 'not just a coat of paint' argument: marketing. Liveries may provide a sacrificial layer to the metalwork, and are otherwise anathema to the mechanically minded, but the whole point of a livery is to market a brand. Whilst I personally prefer the brand uniformity provided by BR Brunswick Green/lined black/plain black to all classes so-painted (it makes everything look tidier in my view, and offsets the sometimes technicolour carriage sets used on the mainline by being more subdued), I can see the trust's point of view in that LMS Crimson Lake has become something of a brand for that locomotive, and enables it to stand out against the rest.

However, it does seem a shame that we have reached a situation where bitter arguments are sparked by a proposed change in livery policy, no matter how temporary, and this case seems to show that the anti-BR livery fraternity can be equally as entrenched in their views as their BR counterparts. This is not knocking anyone as this post has implied that there is a strong case for both sides, but this is how I see the situation. By the way, I've now reached the second milennium of posts...

 

Oh well it may all have changed again tomorrow if the "not red again!!" faction is as active generally as the posters on this forum

 

I was waiting for someone to mention that...!

 

If the engine is going to be spending the rest of its ticket in LMS Crimson why include it in the poll ? it should have been , either black, blue or green

Personally even if she never carried a certain livery , to me it makes no difference , for instance, the experimental ultramarine deep blue has never been carried by any large engine in preservation, so why not ?

Its good that we can bring back to life these liveries that fell by the wayside , look at 6023, she looks stunning in blue, to my mind far better than she would have looked in green, the problem is that some people seem to only want engines to look how they remember them, but the vast majority of us cant even remember the BR steam era, some who say its green or nothing , were probally not even born in 68 from what i remember, but i was young, was dirty engines that you couldnt even see what livery they were in

 

Already mentioned back on post 94 (boast, boast) . It didn't seem to get picked up back then, though...

 

Drum roll......................................
todays updates are...............
1st place: LMS crimson lake-585 votes
2nd place: BR green-553 votes
3rd place: BR blue-511 votes
4th place LMS ivatt black-65 votes.

So as you can see its getting close between the top three and black is being dropped out of the game.