48518: Remains of....

yanky's statement that 8F and Class 5 cylinders are the same is misleading. The frames on 48518 are 1 1/16" thickness. The only Class 5s with frames of that thickness were 45462-45499 and 44800-44825. 45000-45461 had 1" thickness frames and the remainder late built members of the class had 1 1/8" thickness frames. By deduction the only present Class 5 that could do a straight swap is 45491. Any other Class 5s would need either shims or the the back of the cylinders would have to be machined to suit the increase in frame thickness.

 

A spacer is still cheaper than having a new cylinder cast and machined!

 

Quite right Steve. I was just clarifying yanky's statement.

 

I was informed yesterday that 48518's frames will be returning to Barry. They will then be combined with an imported Turkish 8F to make a complete 8F (48518?).
Quite frankly, the 48518/County/Patriot saga beggars belief. It is ill thought out and poorly planned. Why wasn't a Turkish 8F imported and its boiler wrecked for the County? The motion components on it could also have been used to help restore 48518 to working order.

 

Have to agree there, It wont end up a proper County with a modified 8F boiler on it..cheaper way to do it I know, but a new boiler would have been more acceptable to me.

 

OK so lets clarify this. A complete but worn out engine that has operated and been stored in a dry environment and probably doesn't suffer from chronic and extreme corrosion in its frames is going to be rebuilt on a set of completely stripped and rotted frames that require completely rebuilding and patching up? Wouldn't it be easier to just swap the (replica) number plate over and use the remains of 48158 as a big flower pot????

Even if the rebuild goes ahead the percentage of original fabric from 48518 is going to be almost zilch. Its gone now - let it rest in peace.

 

OK so lets clarify this. A complete but worn out engine that has operated and been stored in a dry environment and probably doesn't suffer from chronic and extreme corrosion in its frames is going to be rebuilt on a set of completely stripped and rotted frames that require completely rebuilding and patching up? Wouldn't it be easier to just swap the (replica) number plate over and use the remains of 48158 as a big flower pot????

Even if the rebuild goes ahead the percentage of original fabric from 48518 is going to be almost zilch. Its gone now - let it rest in peace.[/quote:3czr4ftq]

That's what I like about you, Maunsell.. you're never afraid to upset the rivet counters!!!! 8-[

 

It will only be cheaper if the project relies on volunteer labour for much of the work. If it is being done commercially it will be much cheaper to start from scratch. And more sensible, too. But we've been here before......

 

I take it the press release will be in a couple of weeks? Maybe this is Steam Railway's next appeal!

Good to see some sanity restored.

 

That's what I like about you, Maunsell.. you're never afraid to upset the rivet counters!!!! 8-[[/quote:grvv0zsg]



Rivet counters? there is only five left and they are all rotten anyway!

Sometimes you just have to let go otherwise next someone is going to get an old Hotpoint washing machine from the 60's and claim it is actually the mortal remains of the old Lickey Banker 'Big Bertha' and start a restoration appeal for that!

 

Well I think the NRM has a regulator handle off Big Betha (or 'Big M.R.' - pronounced 'Emma' as the Derby railwaymen called her, Bertha was the trainspotter's name) and the cylinder block is buried beneath Pride Park to add to the washing machine....

Your comment reminded me that much of the skeleton on the R101 airship was sold to the Zepplin company after it crashed in Northern France and legend has it that much of it was recycled into material for the "Hindenburg".

 

OK so lets clarify this. A complete but worn out engine that has operated and been stored in a dry environment and probably doesn't suffer from chronic and extreme corrosion in its frames is going to be rebuilt on a set of completely stripped and rotted frames that require completely rebuilding and patching up? Wouldn't it be easier to just swap the (replica) number plate over and use the remains of 48158 as a big flower pot????

Even if the rebuild goes ahead the percentage of original fabric from 48518 is going to be almost zilch. Its gone now - let it rest in peace.[/quote:1fhgyb5k]
48518 frames aren't that bad tbh, but the rest of your post is pretty much spot on. In fact both of your posts make complete sense, to most anyway.

 

But isn't the argument about 48518 that its the last surviving "LNER" 8F, and bearing in mind the normal lifespan of these things components isn't it likely that the frames were pretty much the only major "LNER" components left when it reached Barry anyway?

 

I think you've quoted the wrong person there :-k
But yes you are right, and we have been told that the boiler she had (now with 1014) was one built at Crewe in the 1950s.
Argument is though there is only the frames left. Why remove everything from one set of frames onto another all for the sake of a number ?

 

Problem is there it hasn't actually survived. If the loco was the last remnants of a unique survivor (say a Gresely P2 or an LBSC K class mogul for instance) it may be a lot more viable as a project, but it isn't. If it was put back together 99% of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it and the other surviving machines. In the grand scheme of things it is another 8f - and there are bags of them left across the world. To strip a complete one that has spent its entire life in a dry environment and put all the bits onto frames that are probably much worse through corrosion is an exercise in the pointless. Give the frames to the NRM if the flower pot option doesn't work and let them set up an 'intepretive display' about the war. As a working loco they are finished - its gone too far.

Whether you agree with the County project the fact remains they have naffled the boiler. Someone else has the tender, cylinder, pony truck and no doubt the wheels and remains of motion have found new homes. It will be a replica of 48518. If you want to chuck money at a replica then give the Brighton Atlantic folk a cheque or the 82045 mob or even the County gang!

 

I'm no fan of the idea of scrapping an 8F to use some bits that are "somewhere near" to make a replica County, but that's not the issue here. We've had an interesting and challenging discussion about that elsewhere!

What I fail to understand is if the funds were not available to restore this loco in its ex Barry condition, where are they going to come from now, especially as it has undergone severe butchery?

A final point - whilst it may have been an LNER engine in a trainspotter book, it's pure LMS when you're on it. All the features that make an "eastern" engine are absent.

 

All its features are...absent!!

 

So, what you're saying, Ed, is that if we put a rat trap firehole door and crappy injectors/clacks on, it will be an LNER loco?!! Must we have a flowerpot, as well?

 

It's not that the money wasn't there, but the ability to physically touch the engine wasn't due to all the red tape. That has now been removed for this particular loco, after a group of people spent a lot of time and hard work to get it out. The fact they've used the boiler for 1014 is a different matter, the point I'm trying to make is they removed the red tape so it can now be worked on.

 

No, what I'm saying is that it's a quality LMS engine, which the LNER somehow managed to construct under licence for the war effort.

You have correctly identified some of the failings of LNER technology compared to the LMS. The only thing the LNER got right was that you can open their injector steam valves without giving yourself arthritas in later life.

Despite attracting little interest in Barry, this machine has suddenly developed a following because some feel she's one of those scarce LNER things.

My point is she's an LMS engine that once had LNER painted on the side. Not LNER at all, beyond a few paint marks. A few fittings will not change that.