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Maybe not! The 8F could work the GCR TPO's

 

Am I the only one who is disappointed by the fact that unfitted goods trains are becoming a thing of the past, even on heritage railways. It's a site and sound that we are losing yet one that we have the ability to create and keep for posterity. The skills to operate them should be part of a loco crews training.

 

Is there any value in retaining skills whose only purpose would be to go on running similar trains in future?

Does a train of unfitted wagons serve any purpose other than to be photographed?

A passenger train on a preserved railway is not only a re-creation (more or less imperfect) of the past but also a real train carrying real people from somewhere to somewhere else, even if they are only going for the ride and coming straight back. A freight train is purely a re-creation, with no other function, unless it's carrying materials for the railway (new sleepers, loco parts or whatever) in which case it's unlikely to consist of unfitted open wagons.

 

You might as well say the same thing about retaining the skills involved in driving and firing steam locomotives: diesels would be a much cheaper way to transport people; buses would be cheaper still. Cheapest of all would be not transporting them at all, given that hardly any actually have a practical reason for going from A to B, except to give a reason to travel from B to A.

Tom

 

I would disagree, I feel that while a freight train has no practical purpose it can do other things, such as inspire the younger generations, I remember being on the NYMR when the Q6 came past with a demonstration freight when I was younger and thinking wow, sure a passenger train can do the same but the effect is there, it can help promote railway preservation and that I feel is priceless, no matter if the loco is in authentic colours or not, I'd sooner plonk an A4 on a freight if I knew I was supporting the future of the heritage railway, which at the end of the day is surely more important

 

That is an astonishing argument to put forward on a railway preservation forum. It runs the risk of wholly distorting people's understanding about the railways of old by selectively focusing on one aspect of operations. Taking this to extremes you might as well forget about semaphore signalling as well.

 

What point am I missing exactly? You 're saying that because the project achieved its aim, authenticity is irrelevant? OK then, so by the same argument, if the aim is to preserve (as in make work and generally look after) a steam loco, the colour of the paint does not matter? Or is that somehow different because it will show up in a photograph?

This seems a strange definition of what matters to me. Of course, someone else might find my own interpretation equally strange.

For the record, I'm happy enough for the windcutters to be predominantly grey (although I'd prefer it if all 36 were working, we could have 18 of each then...). It just seems odd to me that people (myself included, I suppose) get worked up about paint colours on an engine but not on other vehicles arguably equally deserving of accurate representation.


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I think you can advance at least four arguments as to why running unfitted trains is of value in itself:

1) Preservation is not just about preservation of artefacts: preservation of skills is an equally valid rationale.

2) Running such vehicles provides a motivation to preserve them in the first place: it is likely that if the only future for wagons was as static exhibits, the desire to expend effort in restoring them would dry up, and in turn the vehicles themselves would end up not being preserved.

3) Running freight trains provides a motivation for volunteers in both the operational and restoration sides. While it is true that any heritage railway must ultimately be operated in a cost-effective way, part of that cost-effectiveness is because they can draw on a hugely valuable pool of volunteer labour. Therefore, activities that help attract and keep that volunteer labour force motivated are valuable, even if those same activities are not in themselves directly remunerative.

4) With regard the aforementioned photographers, they do provide some financial assistance to the railway, particularly for example with the running of photo charters. Some visitors may also be encouraged to visit the railway on account of running things somewhat out of the ordinary.

Tom

 

It's about compromise, a whole fleet of fitted minerals would not reflect history, the fact that the windcutter wagons have vacuum brakes is that compromise, they look right, nothing to do with photographs and the GC can replicate a part of the line's history, or at least they could if they had a black 9F.

 

Preserved railways are working museums or at least should be and freight was the real money maker in the heyday of railways so a demonstration freight is all part of the picture. You could well say what's the point of a historic commercial vehicle road run

I'm not sure if your post was a dig at photographers, if it was I wouldn't go any further with that one. Many of us are members of the railways and locomotives we photograph (one regular contributer on here is the chairman of an owning group and even gets upset if you misspell Bulleid) and although it's not a big moneymaker I shudder to think of what I've spent over the years on charters.

 

Done in BR days. A4s were regularly used on the Kings Cross Goods to Niddrie (Edinburgh) fitted freight trains.

 

In the US they already have, there aren't any lines I am aware of using semaphores.

 

Now that's something I'd love to see, an A4 on a freight, so again I feel that this argument about suitable locos on preserved railways is a tad silly, if the most passenger of passenger locomotives pulled freight then preserved railways running freights with any other loco should be viable, accurate, no, but certainly viable and anyway, as I wasn't born during the age of steam, I'm just thankful to see steam locomotives running and I'm sure a lot of the younger enthusiasts are too.

 

Scroll down to the 6th photo;
http://www.railalbum.co.uk/steam-locomotives/lner-a4-1.htm

and in the book "Images of steam" by Fenman, photo 49 shows an A3 hauling freight.

 

It happened a lot particularly towards the end of their lives. I'm not sure which book it's in but there is an Eric Treacy picture of an A4 on an unfitted mineral train.
The Class C Kings Cross - Niddrie or 266 down as it was known was always a Pacific working and a photo charter on the Nene Valley some years ago attempted to recreat this with the NVR fitted vans using Scotsman renumbered during the day as 60106 and 60072.

If you read Bill Hoole's biography, Engineman Extraordinary, there is an interesting story of how he was carpeted when the Guards log showed a signal check awaiting clearance of preceding train while working the 266. In typical Hoole fashion hed managed to run down the afternoon Talisman.

 

Fitted freights have sufficient brakes for steeply graded lines - whilst the GCR and a few other lines may have minimal gradient - a lot of others don't.

 

The 266 down was legendary amongst the East Coast route brigade. One trip has gone down in the annals of history and is referred to in at least two books. It amuses me to read the two versions of the same event from the eyes of two people, one treating it as a positive happening and the other with great concern. Peter Semmens wrote ‘Engineman Extraordinary’ (about Bill Hoole) in 1966 in which he said:

“The stop-watch brigade does not normally have the opportunity to log the performance of fast freights, so that many of Bill's efforts on "266 Down" have gone unrecorded. There is, however, one account of a run with this train which has been referred to by none other than G. F. Fiennes, the Great Northern Traffic Manager at that time. Although no driver's name is mentioned, one cannot fail to imagine that Bill was responsible, but, to be Irish, if he was not, there is no doubt that he would have wished he had been. The train was 23 minutes late away because of some last-minute repairs required on the locomotive, and as Mr. Fiennes put it, "The driver knew that unless he got his skates on, the 3.40 Leeds (the 'West Riding') and the 'Talisman' would catch him before Peterborough, and the 4.50 before Grantham. By Hitchin he had got his train well on the swing and ran the 27 miles from Hitchin to Huntingdon in 20 minutes." As these fitted freights were strictly-speaking limited to 55 m.p.h., this was somewhat overdoing it, and a hot box developed on one of the wagons, forcing them to stop and put it off at Peterborough. Control decided to hold them there while the passenger trains were allowed past, and to return to Mr. Fiennes' words, "When the signal came off, nothing daunted he set off after them and caught the 'Talisman' at Retford. Probably that is the only time that I shall ever see on the Express Freight Sheets the entry '266 Down, five minutes' delay at Grove Road waiting for 'Talisman' to clear." For such an authority to make public runs of this sort, with its infringement of some of the limits, shows clearly how highly they thought of the morale and abilities of the East Coast crews at that time.”

Then shortly after, in 1967, Gerry Fiennes wrote his first book ‘I Tried to Run a Railway’ (a must bead, BTW) and made reference to the same event:

“Then one morning I noticed in the Express Freight record - a tiny sentence ‘2665; Grove Road w/c Talisman'. Now 266 was our 3.15 p.m. Flying Freight to Scotland but she didn't ever, couldn't ever, shouldn’t ever run down the Talisman. I found that again this was Driver Hoole. He had been 23 minutes late from King’s Cross Goods after an argument with his injectors. He had then the 3.40 Leeds express two minutes behind him and the Talisman with only eight coaches, 22 behind. On 266 Down he had 47 wagons around 45o tons and the usual Pacific diagrammed to work back from Newcastle with the breakfast car train next morning. Bill set off and by the time he had got to Hitchin, 30 miles out, the 3.40 was well astern. He then squared his shoulders and ran the 27 miles to Huntingdon in 2o minutes dead, at an average speed of 75 miles an hour. They stopped him there for a hot axlebox on a wagon and no wonder. Bill took his train gently into Peterborough, detached the wagon in Westwood Yard, and was up at the outlet signal whistling. The signal remained at danger, not only while the 3.40 went by but also the Talisman. Then the board came off and Bill opened the regulator. The Talisman averages nearly 80 miles an hour beyond Peterborough. It took Bill nearly to Retford to run him down. I began to have doubts about safety.”