If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

60009

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by BillyReopening, Apr 17, 2016.

  1. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,419
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    To anyone who obviously has as much enthusiasm for the locos as Mr Cameron has one would expect the plinthing to be a very last resort option should no working future be possible, all avenues having been explored. Surely if a viable proposition was forthcoming to keep one or both operational that would prove persuasive?
     
  2. 60017

    60017 Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,150
    Likes Received:
    1,543
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    College Lecturer (2nd career).
    Location:
    Fylde Coast
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    What if John Cameron DOESN'T WANT No.9 to run anymore at the end of her current ticket? No amount of speculation or suggestion otherwise will make any difference. He does not owe the heritage movement, nor the public anything. 60007's current overhaul is estimated at £750,000, so it can be assumed No.9's would be equal to or more than that. By building a place to keep her on his own land, within family ownership is something I can fully understand. It could be, at the age of 77, he has had enough of the hassle and expense that goes with keeping an express passenger locomotive operational.
     
    Yorkshire Exile likes this.
  3. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    8,023
    Likes Received:
    2,162
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I don't think it has, so far.
     
  4. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,419
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    That would be entirely his perogative of course but if there was an alternative option for taking the responsibility and cost of overhaul plus operation that would surely have greater appeal to an obvious enthusiast such as Mr C?
    These avenues may well have been explored and there is only one opinion that matters, ultimately.
     
  5. Big Al

    Big Al Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    10,478
    Likes Received:
    6,523
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Whatever is decided, I wish John Cameron well. I wouldn't presume to suggest what he should do and we already owe him so much for what he has invested in No 9. It is his locomotive and his call. One could even see him not wishing to sell the A4 if someone came along with the cash to buy it.
     
  6. 60017

    60017 Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,150
    Likes Received:
    1,543
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    College Lecturer (2nd career).
    Location:
    Fylde Coast
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    exactement!
     
    RalphW likes this.
  7. BillyReopening

    BillyReopening Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2012
    Messages:
    797
    Likes Received:
    522
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Freelance Trumpet Player // IT Engineer
    Location:
    In the south west!
    I think we should all wait and see what happens...

    Lets face it, someone wanting to BUY an A4 - particularly one as high profile as No.9 would have to have very deep pockets. Add to that, its almost out of ticket, so after you have bought it you, you would potentially be looking at a 6/7 figure sum to put it back into service again - and when there are already 2 other A4s that are going to be back in main line service very soon it doesnt start to look like a very attractive prospect. The A1 trust need their funds to look after the A1 and in the future the P2 - adding a locomotive that they haven't built and need to overhaul would not be a great idea.

    At least if its undercover with the K4 it will be properly preserved :)
     
    Yorkshire Exile likes this.
  8. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    8,023
    Likes Received:
    2,162
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I'm fairly certain that there are people waiting in the wings, cheque book ready, having failed to persuade the owners of 60008 and 60010 with big cheques when they were over here.
     
  9. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,419
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    In which case it will be a huge pity if others are denied the opportunity to derive the satisfaction and pleasure the current custodian has enjoyed over the years. If a good plan to preserve the locos in working order has been offered it would be somewhat perverse to stick them in a glass house on a farm instead, albeit the right of Mr C to choose so.
     
    jnc likes this.
  10. 60017

    60017 Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,150
    Likes Received:
    1,543
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    College Lecturer (2nd career).
    Location:
    Fylde Coast
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I totally disagree.
     
    RalphW likes this.
  11. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    4,206
    Likes Received:
    3,667
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Chartered Certified Accountant
    Location:
    North Yorkshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Don't forget these locos are John Cameron's - he has invested huge sums in them over the years and I, as a collector of smaller, less expensive (but expensive enough!) items can fully understand any desire he may have to be able to go and admire them at close quarters whenever he wants - something he can't do if he is in Fife and they are on tour somewhere else in the UK.

    I know somebody who owns a rather special classic car. He keeps it at a special company that takes care of it, and can go and admire it whenever he wishes (during opening hours), but he still plans to build a suitable garage to have it 'at home' so going and looking at it can be done at anytime - he has admitted he tries not to let his wife see some of the looks he gives the car!

    I suspect many of us on here are collectors of some sort, and I am sure we all enjoy just looking at the items in our collections and 'enjoying ownership'. John Cameron has shared his collection with the rest of us for many years; no-one should begrudge him now planning to enjoy it on his own terms in the future.

    Steven
     
    47406, RalphW, jnc and 5 others like this.
  12. 60017

    60017 Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,150
    Likes Received:
    1,543
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    College Lecturer (2nd career).
    Location:
    Fylde Coast
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Well said Steven.
     
    RalphW, 35B, 1472 and 1 other person like this.
  13. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    2,503
    Likes Received:
    811
    No quarrel with that as long as he is able to do so, but there will come a time when he will be either alive but incapacitated or deceased. The question is how the trustees will see their responsibility then. Are the terms of the trust intended to be flexible, allowing refurbishment to running order if someone provides the cash, or is static display (to only a few visitors in a mini museum somewhat off the beaten track) the only possibility?
     
    jnc likes this.
  14. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    6,907
    Likes Received:
    3,621
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    All matters that the Trustees will no doubt address in what will hopefully be a long time, as for the terms of the Trust that again is a matter for those setting up said organisation and unless seeking public subscriptions have zero to do with anyone else.

    Ultimately No.9 and the K4 are private assets and it is entirely up to the owner of said asset what happens with them, not aimed at anyone in particular but one can understand why people such as messers Smith and Riley hold enthusiasts in such low regard when one considers that many seem to think they have a god given right to dictate to them how they should manage their own assets.
     
    Jimc, RalphW, oddsocks and 2 others like this.
  15. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    6,743
    Likes Received:
    1,372
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alderan !
    Perhaps not surprisingly this one is bouncing around the facebook groups

    What I think we miss is that for John much of the pleasure for Mr Cameron is being on the footplate of his engines on the main line . Those close to him have posted that money is not the issue , what is , is the march of time and his ability to enjoy what he likes most . Another post broadly said , when the fun stops then the loco's stop . We as enthusiasts have an amount of invested emotional capital in especially No.9 which is my favourite A4 of all in the same was as 46229 in BR Red will to me always be "The Duchess" and to see a loco that has been part of our preservation lives go cold feels horrible

    however as owner it is up to him as to what happens to the engines in future and that is something we should respect
     
    Matt37401 and andalfi1 like this.
  16. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,419
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    I respect that entirely and understand the satisfaction that possession brings. It is not a philosophy I would personally subscribe to and seems at odds with someone seemingly having derived great pleasure from the engines being used as intended and seen widely as cultural artefacts though.
    I guess time changes us all.
     
  17. Johnb

    Johnb Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    5,972
    Likes Received:
    3,610
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The last time 61994 did the West Highland Charter John Cameron was on the footplate all day and said it was the most enjoyable time he's had with the engine. I don't blame him for not wanting the hassle of running to mainline locos at his age or equally see them festering away in a siding somewhere. If a viable plan was presented for putting them through another overhaul at no cost to him I'm not sure he would resist but rather than debating and speculating this is now the time to thank this Scottish farmer for all the pleasure he's given us over the years.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
    Fred Kerr, oddsocks, 26D_M and 3 others like this.
  18. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,419
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    I fully agree though I also think 61994 has a greater cultural significance being unique and of singular national heritage. Mr C took it on when Lord Lindsay decided he was not able to do it justice and it would be nice to discover the current custodian may think likewise if a viable proposition is put forward.
     
  19. John Petley

    John Petley Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,149
    Likes Received:
    773
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Researcher/Editor
    Location:
    Between LBSCR 221 and LBSCR 227
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You don't need long memories to go back to the outpouring of grief on this forum when Green Arrow was retired. Then a few years earlier, there were plenty of none-too-happy people when it was announced that 6000 was to be stuffed and mounted. Going back further still, I am thankful that I was able to enjoy Midland 1000 on the main line (albeit double headed with 4771) I doubt if we will ever see this lovely loco in steam again.

    Who wouldn't want to see all these aforementioned engines working again? The bottom line, however, is that we still have plenty to enjoy and look forward to on the main line. without them, sorely missed as they are. I can think of at least four main line débutants this year (6023, 35018, 45212 and 76084), not to mention the return of 7029, 45596 and 35028. Yes, "Number Nine" and 61994 will be missed too but thankfully there are plenty of other engines whose owners are still prepared to shell out the huge sums of money required to allow their locos to run on the main line. For that we must be grateful.
     
    Mick45305, Graft on and GWR4707 like this.
  20. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,916
    Likes Received:
    1,378
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Not sure 1000 and 4771 are the best examples being sole survivors, whereas there are a number of Kings or Jubilee's, without the former two, Compounds and V2's are silenced.

    I can live without 6000 with 6023 and 6024 running about, there's nothing to fill Green Arrow's void though.
     

Share This Page