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6023

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Eightpot, Oct 4, 2011.

  1. Penricecastle

    Penricecastle Member

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    Karl Buckingham is, I think, the CME who oversees 6023. He is a Facebook friend of mine, but I don't know if he is a member of Nat. Pres.

    I'm pretty sure he once said that he has had steaming experience of all three preserved Kings 6000, 6023 and 6024. I'm also pretty sure he said that in it's current condition with Jos Koopmans' blastpipe, 6023 is the best of the three.

    It is a great pity that 6023 has been unable to prove what it can do on the main line. It's also a pity that a Jos Koopmans blastpipe has not been fitted to another UK loco, preferably main line registered.
     
  2. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Best can mean so many things... the one that boils water with the greatest rapidity may also use the most coal and have the greatest cost overheads.
     
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  3. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I don't think there was any problem with 6023's steaming whilst at the NYMR. You just shovelled tons of coal and used an awful lot of water. A lot more than any other loco to have visited the line.
     
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  4. blink bonny

    blink bonny Member

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    King-Edward-II-(41)-fbook.jpg
     
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  5. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

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    Don`t get me wrong, but why should they if the locomotive(s) already perform satisfactory?
     
  6. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    It depends on what you define as satisfactorily. You can fit the best exhaust system devisable, it will drive your boiler to the best front end limit, it will help to compensate for variations in fuel quality and vacuum chamber leaks and variations in gas flow resistance but at the end of the day if your losses due to leakage and condensation are not under control then you will have to live with the inevitable result. You will burn fuel in order to evaporate water which in turn contributes no useful work. Imagine the impact of 50% of your evaporation being lost. A locomotive experiencing such a level of leakage would have to produce twice the evaporation of a nominally identical machine that was in good mechanical order. The engine in question would be able to do the work required of it but at what would be an unacceptable cost under most circumstances.
     
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  7. JJG Koopmans

    JJG Koopmans Member

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    Oh, Really? With a 4-orifice blastcap the exhaust orifice area can be 50% larger as the retained chimney is then used as a proper long diffuser!
    With a single orifice expensive coal is just thrown away!
    Kind regards
    Jos
     
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  8. Scrat

    Scrat New Member

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    Would seem a strange comment to make considering 6023 has had no real road testing with heavy loads at speeds requiring high steaming rates for long periods, slogging at 20/25mph on the NYMR for a couple of miles hardly constitutes this... Fair to say that 6024 has proved itself to be capable of producing some very high steaming rates over its period of operation, and has exceeded results the WR recorded whilst having kings on test at Swindon.
     
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  9. Penricecastle

    Penricecastle Member

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    I didn't realize this, I assume this is fact?
    From the many videos of 6023 on the NYMR, it appears to be performing extremely well. Clearly there appear to be steam leaks from (I'm not an expert, so I'm guessing) the glands, but surely the amount of steam lost in this way is not significant, relative to the total amount of steam the loco was producing and putting to use?

    I agree that 25mph running is never going to be a real test. However, it surely gives some indication as to the loco's potential.

    It would be useful if someone from the GWS or loco department of the NYMR would comment on 6023's performance and in particular coal and water consumption.

    My impression remains that Jos Koopmans' four nozzle blastpipe is a big step forward in draughting for 6023. With the original sleeved single chimney, developed by Sam Ell at Swindon in the early 1950's, the resulting ferocious exhaust blast had a huge effect on coal consumption at 25mph running. Maybe the sleeved single chimney would perform better at higher speeds?
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
  10. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    6024 has an 'Ell' designed double chimney, same as 6000.

    6023 with it's single 'cut down' chimney is quite a different matter entirely, and why Jos Koopmans provided a relatively cheap and easy modification to the draughting with a multiple orifice blast pipe.

    The single chimneys on the GWR Castles and Kings were never optimal, even without being 'cut down' in the case of 6023 in recent years.

    Perhaps 6023 is a product of crew unfamiliarity on some of the places it has visited, and poor coal, and something else so far as the water consumption is concerned.

    I have not the slightest doubt none of this has anything to do with Jos Koopmans' alterations to the draughting, which can only have made 6023 a better steaming loco, and freer steaming with lower back pressure on the cylinders. An equilibrium is apparent so far as my examination of 6023 working on the Paignton -Kingswear Line with the Jos Koopmans alterations. If the blast were now too much/too fierce with the multiple blast nozzle and improved draughting (causing too much coal to be burnt and too much water being boiled), the safety valves would be continuously blowing off and raging away. This is not the case.

    With lower back pressure with the multiple blast nozzle the coal consumption ought to be reduced, and the efficiency of the loco improved.

    So my conclusion is other factors are resulting in the comments by some of large coal consumption and large water consumption.

    Cheers,
    Julian
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  11. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

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    Was that not the findings of the locomotive exchange trials in 1948? The King was a decent enough loco but was repeatedly the hungriest and thirstiest? Western locos were designed for Welsh Coal and were very good with Welsh Coal, but they weren't as good as many other loco designs at coping with a different form of fuel or method of firing than that for which they were designed.
     
  12. JJG Koopmans

    JJG Koopmans Member

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    That is a poor comment as accellerating with a heavy train on an incline with 75% cut-off is very comparable in steam consumption with 20% cut-off at high speed. Karl Buckingham stated to me he could do with the 6023 anything he wanted her to do, this a a comment from somebody who has spent more hours on the 6023 footplate than anybody else.
    Apart from all of this, as long as neither 6023 or 6024 has been tested with instrumentation it is just opinions.
    Kind regards
    Jos
     
  13. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    Sam Ell redesigned the draughting of the Kings and Castles in the 1950s; the single chimney alterations were never 'optimal' by Ell, so hence the later double chimneys by Ell. I would agree with you that the single chimney Kings and Castles as built originally left a lot to be desired as to the draughting, as they were never part of Churchward's 'standards' for draughting, originally drawn by Holcroft. Similarly the GWR Manor did not fit in, and after Holcroft left the GWR for the SECR, there appears to have been a vacuum of knowledge in the drawing office on such matters till Sam Ell was allowed to investigate these matters anew after WW2.

    The (sadly recently) late Bob Youldon supplied me with all the test data and reports on the GWR Manors undertaken by Sam Ell at Swindon, and I have never seen these fully published other than vague references.

    Cheers,

    Julian
     
  14. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    The Talyllyn Railway Number 1 after restoration to working order needed very careful managing by the fireman. In addition to this the engine devoured both coal and water. At first it was felt that the boiler was the problem but please don't ask me why. Here the railway had an engine that used coal and water. All that water had to be going somewhere, all that coal had to be doing something. That coal was evaporating water and the steam that was being produced had to be doing something or going somewhere. Eventually the finger was pointed and it was pointed at the valve gear. Here was the source of the wastage, the boiler wasn't poor it was actually fine, but it was being forced to evaporate far more than was really necessary because of defective valve gear. The TR did carry out some measurements on its engines but Number 1 would have been judged in relation to the experience of other locomotives on the line which were carrying out similar work. The measured and modified valve gear delivered measurable results.

    If 6023 has been working alongside similarly sized engines engaged in carrying out near identical work and the impression has been gained that this locomotive is more extravagant in use of coal and water than the other engines in question then it is natural to ask why this should be the case. We can look at the history of the classes and see if any earlier tests and trials might offer any possible answer. These earlier tests might be of value in assessing the machine that is causing concern but for this impressions are of no value, we need measurements. There are a wide range of factors that could reduce efficiency and it should not be assumed that any of these should be inapplicable.
     
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  15. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    Hi 242A1,

    I don't think that an 1860s narrow gauge loco can be compared to a GWR King with W H Pearce valve gear!

    I knew the late Bert Brock who was involved with indicator tests on TR No.1 'Talyllyn' in the very early 1960s, and John Bate deals with this in his book 'The Chronicles of Pendre Sidings'.

    I could say a lot more, but it is far too late and I have a bad cold.

    Cheers,
    Julian
     
  16. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    A steam locomotive is a steam locomotive when it comes down to it.
     
  17. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    From memory of John Bate's articles in the News at the relevant times, the problem with No 1 after rebuild was that the boiler at the front end was effectively secured by the steam pipes, which meant the joints were always blowing out. This was cured by a two stage modification, which saw inter alia, new more substantial front portions of the frames welded on and the rear two wheel truck put into a bissel arrangement, with the flanges restored to the driving wheels. I don't recall there being a problem with the valve gear. I think there is a problem with the geometry of No2's Allan straight link gear but it was felt that it was good enough for purpose. This is all from memory so happy to be corrected.
     
  18. Scrat

    Scrat New Member

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    This is an equally poor comment. I can say from my own experience of working a double chimney king hard both at low speed and at high speed that the water consumption is nothing like the same, and I dont know any WR driver that would ever work a king in 75% cut off at any speed other than to get the loco to start.... This would be very poor driving.
     
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  19. D7076

    D7076 Well-Known Member

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    They did ....
     
  20. Penricecastle

    Penricecastle Member

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    This is a very interesting thread. My impression was, and still is, that the Jos Koopmans blastpipe had cured the steaming issues of the cut-down single chimney 6023. Videos have shown that there is some steam leakage from the front end, but this was not unusual with GWR four cylinder locos. I wasn't aware of the ongoing problems with high coal and water consumption. Could this be due to cylinders and valves being worn? However, if this was the case, surely the locos performance would suffer?
     

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