6100 Royal Scot

...but the colour’s still the same when it's flipped horizontally…

 

An interesting thread, and which is why I enjoy reading this forum. Anyway, I've Photoshopped a couple of shots I took of 6100 at SSS2 into a colour as close I could get to LMS Crimson Lake, comparing with a shot I'd previously taken of 6201. For the record, I shoot raw and have calibrated my camera with a Gretag Macbeth colour checker chart, so I at least have some confidence of the accuracy of its output. Boring bit over, here are the shots for comparison:

http://railphotos.demeseo.com/p58077253.html vice the untouched http://railphotos.demeseo.com/p57644633.html

and

http://railphotos.demeseo.com/p58077359.html vice the untouched http://railphotos.demeseo.com/p57644647.html

If anyone's interested, my "recipe" in Photoshop was to make a selection around the engine and tender, click-select the red bits I wanted to change, then change the hue to +7, -38 saturation, and -8 luminosity. I can probably get a little closer -- I think it should be a little more "plum". But then again, 6100 doesn't have a parallel boiler... A spectrophotometer would be a handy thing to carry round.

 

Quite a difference. Lovely shots, thanks.

Dave

 

Says in the 'Railway Magazine' that the chaps at Minehead managed to get a 'Great Western' logo onto the tender for 15 mins before the folks from LNWR noticed and got it taken off.

Did anyone, by any chance, get a pic?

 

An interview with Pete Waterman in the Liverpool Daily post. Here are some choice quotes regarding 6100...

"It was hoped Royal Scot, which has not run on the mainline since 1962, would be ready in time to haul the Daily Post Coast to Coast Express from Liverpool to Scarborough, July 4, after an overhaul rumoured to have cost £1m.

This schedule was not possible, and Royal Scot’s larger cousin, Princess Elizabeth, will stand in. Royal Scot should be relaunched amid great fanfare in August on the Daily Post steam trips. It is believed the engine has not visited Liverpool since before the war.

"Royal Scot has major ‘bottom end’ problems which we’d not envisaged," says Pete. "The valve gear was more badly worn than its owners, Bressingham Steam Museum, realised."

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liv ... -23947445/

Chris

 

So what did they deliver for the seven figure sum then? bit late now to start finding fundamental faults like this?

 

Not much.

Peter Waterman was being polite and diplomatic, and it's almost funny to read that comment - if it wasn't so serious.

There's a heck of a lot more to resolve than worn valve gear. But this has been mentioned in this forum months ago, so it shouldn't be a surprise. Unfortunately one or two hecklers have tried to pretend all is well when it's not, and it became quite unpleasant.

 

For those of us less steeped in the 40-odd-year lore of loco preservation, this is a fascinating thread. My question is, is there a quick reference guide somewhere to "Who owns what?" "Who restored what?" and "Who maintains what?"

Just an example, 70013 and 6100 are both based at Bressingham, aren't they? (Please say if not)

We've all seen that 70013 is currently a reliable and impressive performer, whose crews aren't afraid to get the max. out of her. Whereas 6100 has the "cosmetic issues" that are well documented here, and now we read that she is in need of mechanical TLC by Pete Waterman's operation, before mainline running can be considered.

Did 70013 also have teething troubles like this when newly restored, or is there a quality difference that can be explained by their respective histories in preservation?

 

So how badly worn are its owners then?

Richard.

 

70013 is a completely different set of circumstances, as its an NRM engine and fell under their umbrella when an agreement was reached for her to leave Bressingham. More importantly, it was restored by the 5305 group at Loughborough rather than under contract to Roland Kennington at Southall, which going by this thread seems the root of 6100's problems.

Chris

 

Having travelled behind 45305 on the mainline several times after she was overhauled I am not in the slightest bit surprised at 70013's performance and abilities. 45305 is by far the best black five out there in my opinion (with apologies to Mr.Riley!). The 5305 group are an exceptional bunch who know how to restore a locomotive to Rolls Royce condition, no wonder the NRM are happy for 30777 to be in their custody. Another point to remember is that 70013 was restored for a fraction of the cost of 6100-both were supposed to be in good condition. I would say that the only similarity between the two is that they were once based at Bressingham-today their fortunes are vastly different.

 

Basically correct. But it's a little more complicated than that. Bressingham obtained a lottery grant to overhaul 6100 at Bressingham using the team that was based there, and which also included the overhaul of Martello. The lottery application and subsequent grant was based on a detailed proposal that was compiled by the same group that later overhauled 70013. After the lottery agreement was put in place the project was handed over to the Southall based people, and the engineers and volunteers based at Bressingham were sidelined, to put it politely. There were various reasons for that happening, none of which had much basis in the project management, engineering and financing of 6100, but a lot to do with other interests. With the results that are plain to see. Martello, on the other hand was completed pretty much within the budget and schedule, whilst Royal Scot is years late and full of holes.

 

Thanks gentlemen, that's exactly the kind of info I asked for.

So that's Loughborough (70013) , Tyseley (5043) and Carnforth (46115) who have restored and/or maintained excellent, not just good, performers in recent years. Would someone like add names to the roll of honour? Not if you work there, though, that's not the way the Good Pub Guide is compiled. :smt002

 

Be that as it may but there were also those who predicted it wouldn't turn a wheel in anger at the WSR yet it managed to complete its duties there and at the Llangollen Gala. Doesn't mean all was/is well with the loco and no doubt these gala appearances were a great help is assessing what needed to be done to bring 6100 up to spec. The fact remains that she's done more miles to date than some people said she would. It would be nice if just occasionally some people put their hands up and said "OK, I was wrong this time."

 

As per a previous post, 70013 was overhauled by the 5305 team at the GCR. Did the Bressingham volunteers have much input to the job as travelling backwards and forwards from Norfolk to Leicestershire would have been a bit of a bind. I can't recall the exact details but wasn't it proposed to do 70013 at the GCR from day 1?

 

I agree with that comment completely. Those who shout loudest with a pointy finger fall noticably quiet when their predictions do not come to pass. I would have a lot more respect for their point of view if they humbled themselves as you described. But, as most of us know - once 'the ego has landed' there is little to be done other than than gasp in awe at their magnificence !

 

Intersting thread and after following it closely since it started I would have to say that the doubters have actually been proved spot on. Yes 6100 worked at SSS2 but by all accounts it wa bit of a lame duck that drank more than an alki locked in a brewery. After a £1 million pound overhaul on what was a complete locomotive that ain't right - Not one bit. For Lord Waterman to make statements that the valve gear is badly worn after shopping from an extensive overhaul is a huge statement supporting the argument that things were not right at Southall and funds and labour resources were at best mis-managed and at worst.... Public money has been ladled into this project and there appears to be little to show for it other than a loco that is not fit for purpose. The HLF should by all accounts appoint an independent auditor to scrutinise the accounts and establish where the money has actually gone. Remember Tangmere which was stripped and ex-Barry was repaired with full time labour for a similar amount and they had nothing much to start with.

On this occasion Mr Impala o' Bongo has again found to be bob-on the money and what was predicted has come to pass despite protestations and name calling. The Royal Scot is one expensive pile of **** and in its present condition will never got near the main line.

 

I agree that the allocation and spending of funds is an issue that may need to be investigated fully. That is way beyond the scope of anything written on this board. Speculation/accusation in that respect could easily be viewed as a slanderous libel and no-one wants to see that chucked around (I hope). I feel sorry for the ordinary volunteer workforce that have got caught up in this reported mess. They are the real victims in all of this and the wider public are denied the presence of another 'Scot' on the mainline. For now.

 

6100's stints on the WSR and LR proved very little im afraid. While im not 100% sure, i dont remember ever seeing anyone say she wouldnt move, or that she couldnt pull trains on a preserved line (she wouldnt have left crewe if otherwise). What people did say was that the quality and scope of work wasnt up to scratch, and going by her delays, cost and mainline miles to date, i'd say that was fully vindicated. Being badly off-beat and painted like a tomato did nothing to allay those fears, and neither now has this article.

Chris

 

Agree 100% there. However the balance of evidence is suggesting that there are financial, management and engineering issues surrounding the overhaul of this machine that are at present unanswered. Also, the movement loses credability both with the HLF and the general public if vast sums of money are allocated to a project that effectively fails in its prime objective, in this context the main line running of 6100. Therefore the implications go far beyond a few disappointed volunteers as it will make fundraising for the next project just that little bit harder. Whilst the public and petty arguing goes on about those damn smoke deflectors the underlying questions relating to the quality of the overhaul that was carried out remain unanswered. I have a feeling though that sooner rather than later awkward questions will get asked and justification for both spending and engineering desicions will need answering.