6100 Royal Scot

It's a pity that Boston Lodge isn't available.

Meic

 

When the gloves come off, no facts come out and the mods have to close the topic.. then everyone complains.

I could PM this to the individuals concerned, but for the benefit of all users of the forum..

Please refrain from personal insults at each other.

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It's only fair and natural to have two sides to every argument, if it's to be debated in a public forum, then the best way to win it is to produce facts and let the other part counter argue.

Sitting in a high chair doesnt mean the high road..
Personally someones id is their own choice, and to be honest a name / reputation means nothing when balanced against evidence and facts.

So to everyone.. more facts, more solutions, less name calling, lets leave this topic open.

 

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like a previous poster said, my fear is that anyone who asks for lottery funding in future will have a much harder time ,having seem the way that public money has been spent with no apparent controls in place i can see a lot of viable schemes being turned down and bressingham must be feeling shell shocked, its one thing to have to change your contractor ,but then to find that the engine isnt anywhere near to the condition it should be when you concider the money that has been spent
why werent there any safeguards in place to monitor the work, either by the HLF or the trustees
are there any plans by either body to investigate what went wrong and should the police called in ,if any cases of impropper use of lottery funding has been found could bressingham be made to pay the money back?

 

It's a bit early to start calling the police don't you think ? Improper use of funds is one thing (if indeed there has been) but fraudulent use of funds is entirely different. If people constantly speculate about how funds were used or misused, then someone is going to slip-up and make a comment that could land them in trouble if they cannot back up their opinion with facts.

Something has gone wrong - everyone can see that. Maybe Crewe or the owners should make a definitive statement about the exact problems they are now facing and what kind of monetary value it represents. Hiding these issues will not protect anyone in the long-term, but, being up front and honest about them could possibly win some respect.

 

Actually, I think 6100's overhaul was seriously delayed (of the order of two years, IIRC) as well as running so far over-budget. Some of you may be familiar with the old adage that "you can have it right, you can have it quick, you can have it cheap: choose any two". Sadly, it looks as though Bressing have received none of the above.

 

Remember that 6100's restoration started some time before 70013 came up for consideration. As was pointed out a little earlier, Loughborough was intended to have a large part in the overhaul but this was changed and the work went to Southall instead. IIRC, this was shortly after Flying Scotsman was sold, leaving the old 4472 team without work and (again IIRC) owed and owing money as a result of the collapse of Flying Scotsman Enterprises (I think that's what the holding company was called).

The problems with the 6100 project and the revelations about 4472's mechanical condition came as quite a suprise to me. When the railway press mentioned Roland Kennington and his team, they were usually very complimentary about the work they did.

 

It's not really a matter for the police, unless you're talking about the fraud squad.

The people who should have got to grips with the situation early on were the heritage lottery fund. They've had plenty of opportunities but appear not to be interested in where their money goes. As I understand it, despite many representations from groups such as the erstwhile Bressingham volunteers. They just set simple targets and appoint a monitor who knows little about the subject. Who in this case lives overseas. If the targets are met - and they are very flexible at times - then no problem.

 

the answer then is that when ever an engine gets lottery money that a competent engineer from a railway not connected to the project has to sign off each stagebefore the money is freed and if the plan is to run main line shouldnt a railtrack approved inspector be also inspecting the build and signing off the mechanical state of the restoration if a regime like this had been in place at leaast we would know that every engine would at least meet a minimum standard

 

Just to fill in a bit more detail, and correct you slightly (sorry). Loughborough were asked to do a detailed survey, report and quote for the overhaul to be done on the GCR. It was made clear this exercise was specifically to support a lottery application. If successful, they would then get the job. "Promised" was the word used when it was related to me. That promise was made by the chairman of the Bressingham trustees. Presumably not necessarily with the knowledge of the other trustees in light of what happened later. Loughborough heard nothing more, not a whisper, even when the lottery funding was announced. Work began at Bressingham and the above came to light when some enquiries were made with loughborough by Bressingham staff regarding some particular costing detail, and it came as a surprise. After a few months and some extensive manoeuvering behind the scenes, it was announced that the staff of Flying Scotsman Services would be put in charge of the job. At that point FFS was in dire financial trouble and it was not clear what was going to happen. One of the pressing issues being who was going to pay for the facilities at Southall. There were also some interesting exchanges between FSS and the GWR group at Southall, but I digress.

I'll leave the casual reader to draw their own conclusions regarding why that strange decision was taken, except to remind everyone that the chairman of the Bressingham trustees was also heavily involved in FSS and also the PMR trust at Butterley. 6233 was some time previously sold to the PMR trust for an undisclosed (translation = bargain) price, and a key figure in the PMR trust was involved in the overthrow of the leaders of the group that were working on 6100 at Bressingham, and the installation of one of the FSS engineering staff as the manager of the 6100 project. At that point any chance of the project being completed anything like on time or in sight of budget went out of the window. Despite typically arrogant declarations in the railway press at the time by a prominent figure at Bressingham, that it would.

And they still are.

One of preservations mysteries.

As in so many of these things, I guess it's not what you know, so much as who you know.

An incredible amount of brown nosing goes on between various centres of preservation - not just Southall - and the so-called railway press.

The condition of Scotsman has been and is being thoroughly documented by the NRM. I suspect something similar might happen with 6100, albeit perhaps not in so much detail.

 

Depends what you mean by competent. In the case of 6100 a respected chartered engineer was used, but he has no railway background. Therefore plenty of opportunity for him to be deceived. Just a casual glance at 6100 reveals things that he didn't even consider.

It's not like the old days. When an experienced mechanical man would inspect the work. These days, since privatisation, it's all paperwork and 'trust'. I know of some quite hair raising situations that have occurred under the current regulations. It's a blame culture rather than a get it right in the first place culture.

 

That sounds like a proper management approach to a project such as this myself.

I think Impala hinted on this here, hand shakes are meaningless in management, it's inspection together with documentation and signatures thats required, before this situation occured, during it's current state and in the future resolution of the problem as well, (lets remember the projects not complete yet).

By comparision to 6100, I would say 4472's new inner firebox going back for further rectification is proof of good management.. before it becomes a bigger problem and before it's signed off, So what if 4472 is a few months late..it's better than accepting it, fitting the boiler and having another lift in a years time.

 

Depends what you mean by competent. In the case of 6100 a respected chartered engineer was used, but he has no railway background. Therefore plenty of opportunity for him to be deceived. Just a casual glance at 6100 reveals things that he didn't even consider.

 

What engines do Bressingham own? 6100, martello , Granville, the rest are NRM arn't they?

did bressingham also sell a steam tractor/engine for 250k towards 6100's overhaul

 

Poor old Royal scot
Still i supose it gives Lizzie and The Fling scotsman a rest.

The Melter

 

Bressingham should have kept a close eye on progress, expenditure and standards while Royal Scot was being overhauled. Even more so as the recipients of HLF dosh.
I know that everyone IS well intentioned throughout the Preserved Railway industry, despite the impression that certain individuals create for themselves.

My spies infom me that there have been negotiations between LNWR Heritage and Bressingham to find a way forward. No news yet...

 

Perhaps 6100 would have been best left in the shed at bressingham cold and lifeless which is no doubt what will happen to next planned engine(s) in the queue.
This could also be a good time for the "supporters"of steam to at least try and get to Bressingham or support the museum in some way this year to help them get a bit of money back in the coffers.

StM

 

I think I'd rather wait to find out a bit more about how they were going to spend it first - their stewardship of what has gone into 6100 doesn't fill me with confidence that they wouldn't waste it!

 

I do not believe that Bressingham should have care of any main line locomotives. The place is entirely unsuitable and it has taken years for them to do anything, worthwhile or not, with their large locomotives. I have only been once and was not impressed. It might be fine as a garden centre but not as a heritage steam centre.

Cheers
Alan

 

I agree, the only thing they are really good for is preventing them from rusting.