6100 Royal Scot

I'm reasonably certain that the contract documents for the sale of locos directly from BR generally had a clause in them requiring the removal of anything identifying the loco with British Railways, whether for preservation or further use in industry. I say generally, because I think that there were some where this clause was omitted, probably by accident. BR even painted out their emblem on some locos prior to handing them over. This is one of the reasons why most early examples of preservation ended up in pre-grouping or pre nationalisation livery or, in quite a few cases, fictitious liveries. I can't think of any loco pre about 1970 (possibly later) that received a repaint identifying it as being British Railways, other than those as part of the National Collection.
I suspect that a lot of these original sale clauses have not been rescinded, merely quietly forgotten about.

 

34023, 35028, 73050, 75029 and 92203 were sold directly by BR to their new owners and four of these locos have only ever carried BR livery in preservation and the fifth -34023- steamed at Longmoor in BR colours so if the clause existed it was either absent in these cases or not enforced. IIRC there was a clause forbidding the scrapyards from selling on locos so so talking had to be done when groups started approaching Dai Woodham.

 

Not so in the case of 92203 and 75029 - I think I'm right in saying that for a while these carried the crest of the "Shepherd Locomotive Trust" on their tender, although whether it was because they had to have their BR crests obscured I can't say.

 

I'll have to check my photos of them at an early 70s Eastleigh Open day but I'm pretty certain they were carrying BR crests. Quite happy to be proved wrong though.

Edit : found on set of pics from and you are spot on. The SLT crest is there in place of the BR crest. Now to find the other pics and see what's on them.

 

One wonders with all the problems, and all the gossip/flak thats whirring around, is royal scot going to be another scotsman?

 

41241 ran on the KWVR still with BR crests when it first arrived. (photo on KWVR website) Not sure about 51218 and 80002.

 

I think both Spamcan81 and dalrypauls comments are extremely valid.
The best bastion for this is the National Railway Museum, and with engines link Lode Star etc in original condition "not to be disturbed" we have that history. Also engines such as 2818 also will become more historically important in the future as it's an example of a BR overhaul (albeit Eastleigh).. again unlikely to be modified. How many engines are there out there which are in "as withdrawn and musuem" condition.. 46235 comes to mind as a great example... the 2x A4's in the US, but engines like 92220, even 2700 which have run in preservation are "close but no cigar" to ex BR condition.

I think many people agree the NRM needs an ex Barry locomotive.. maybe a Hall would be a good choice ?

anyways we digress I think we need to get back to the topic of 6100 in here

 

Does 4228 at Swindon not forfill that role ? admittedlt it's presented as being in the throws of a heavy general mind.

As for 6100 there's a vid on Youtube if your lucky enough to find it where you can hear a certain Mr Watermans opinion on the livery in the background.

 

I believe the early Bluebell locos were also quickly repainted to remove BR identities - Birchgrove was renumbered 473 by painting out the 32... prefix very quickly after arrival (but remained in black); and Stepney was renumbered 55, but remained in black livery. In due course they were then repainted into pre-group liveries which were of course non-controversial with BR. I'm not sure when the prohibition either expired or was quietly forgotten, but certainly when 75027 arrived around 1968/69, it would only have worn BR livery - maybe BR were no longer concerned once the last steam had disappeared from the national network?

Tom

 

What do you mean going to be, it already is , vastly over spent, and needing more doing than first thought, i wonder , its about a year since the mainline test was first expected to be run, will we see it running tests this year? and what will be the whole cost of returning this engine to the mainline in the end i think that its going to be nearly 1.7 million all told, is this going to be the most expensive restoration yet? what did 46115 cost David Smith ?

 

On my way back to London yesterday I noticed a certain LMS Maroon (not strawberry) tender in the throws of being repainted.. no LMS lettering on it yet.
Also visible was a partially dismantled 60009.

 

It just seems to me every engine roland kennington has a hand in ends up being a basket case and needing large sums of money thrown at it, just a personal opinion.

 

the problem is that there is no one overseeing what he allows , after all at every other railway workshop the engineer is responcible to the general manager who would soon ask questions, in every case large sums of money have been spent, work done that on the face of it was not required ,or could have been done better , and in my opinion there should be questions asked about the lotery fund money that was used for 6100 it clearly has not been put to the stated reason as given to the lottery people , which might leave the new owners or bressingham having to pay back the funds the trusties allowed david ward with reasons that were nothing to do with bressingham to hijack the restoration , this should also be investigated, has he benifited financially from the out sourcing of the restoration to Southall? which he has an involvement with if this is the case then bressingham should call in the police and an investigation over the miss use of public funds and the involvement of those involved

 

Money down the drain?

Being a professional engineer myself and also having put in many hours of painstaking loco restoration in the past, I would never decry the efforts of anyone at all who has made such genuine efforts to see any loco running again and I suspect that, under the microscope, in most respects, Roland Kennington's input was actually beyond reproach. With so many constraints placed at every point along the way and, in the absence of totally unlimited resources (at least during its time at Southall), such tasks as those that he has undertaken often turn out to be a big gamble.

Putting on my armchair woffler's hat for a moment and joining all the other whingers on this forum, I will contribute the following "personal opinion": As has already been stated on this thread, it was never the best of the class anyway, so why should it prove to be any different now? Just so long as they keep 6100 down south and leave 'us up north' with 46115 and 45699, I really don't give a t*ss whether it falls apart on its first run, nor am I overly concerned as to what inappropriate colour they paint it.

Incidentally, 46115 is getting another chance to conquer Standedge / Copy Pit again, on February 13th!

 

Roland Kennington is not the only British engineer with undoubted technical expertise but seemingly unable to manage a project successfully. It's either something to do with the way our engineers are educated and trained, or something in our psyche which I call a "That'll do" mentality. Contrast the decline of British manufacturing with Germany, where their apprentices qualify with practical skills at least equal to our BSc engineers thanks to three years of intensive mentoring by their company supervisor as well as the school work, and the national trait of obsessive attention to detail expressed in the phrase "So geht das nicht" = That won't do. Most German projects are long on planning and short on re-work.
Germany is currently losing jobs to the Chinese in some engineering sectors, but they're staking a claim to world leadership in renewable energy technology. What's the betting that the German power companies end up dominating our wave and tidal power industry? Though they can't match the natural assets around the British coast, they'll just buy 'em up instead.

 

Interestingly, those periods wearing "inaccurate" liveries are now significant parts of those locomotives' histories, and of the history of "railway preservation" in general, just as much as the locoation of their last sheds, how long they spent at Barry, whether they subsequently changed hands, moved restoration bases, appeared at that gala or this opening ceremony...

I presume that the continuance of the livery debate means there's no information about the repairs to Royal Scot at the moment?

 

Here, Here. the misappropriation of funds has been raised before - i personally know of someone who has approached Claire Butler henderson of the HLF on this very topic. He basically got no-where, they appeared to bury their heads in the sand. Now if only i could get some lotteyr funds for my engine.................;-)

The work was supposed to be done at BSM in order to bring in experience etc. to the local area, and by BSM volunteers. That was the bottom line of the grant. £400k was supposed to pay for 6100, Martello and the replacement of the running line! How did they get away with moving the engine to Southall and then paying various people to do the work when it was supposed to be done by volunteers?

i also know that the boiler was found to be in quite good condition, yet once i left BSM it seems to develop a lot more problems and nearly double the cost!