6100 Royal Scot

Are you saying that the GCR would not be appropriate for a member of the Royal Scot Class?

 

several royal scots were allocated to the great central in the early sixties to operate Marylebone services so surely would be authentic at gcr at loughborough

 

Well 46100 is bound to be in better condition than the Scots I remember at Annesley, especially this one!

Dave

 

That'll buff out....


Keith

 

I think you've answered the question, '...to keep the same...' doesn't fit with'... new'. 'But it is still just a very big toy, playing a big game.' Nope, can't agree, it's an historical artifact. And with an historical artifact comes a moral, and sometimes legal, obligation: a friend is currently renovationing a 15th Century house. It has Grade II listed status, and not only is there a list of things he can't do to it - like paint it any colour he wants - but there are also restrictions on the types of materials he can use in the renovation, e.g. lime plaster only. There are no plans, though, to demolish the modern houses in the neighbourhood.

It isn't possible to maintain a locomotive that is to be used - even on a preserved line - in a condition one hundred percent the way it was at a given point in its working career, unlike a static museum exhibit, but you can get close to it. No, you can't (always) get matching stock. No, you can't run it just in places it used to run. But you can try to get close.

The only Scot to run with a taper boiler in LMS red livery was 6170, which was a very different engine to its seventy sisters. 6100's time in LMS red was, mostly, at Bressingham, and while she did steam there, it was long way, physically and metaphorically, from her days with heavy, high-speed trains on the WCML. Do I want to recall her doing that, or pottering around Bressingham giving slow rides of a few hundred yards to no real purpose? No, let's remember her doing what she was built for, in the condition - or as close to it as we can get - she was then in. Let us ALL see her like that.

 

Scots were also seen on the Midland line through Bitton to Bath Green Park, so this would make it authentic to run it along the Avon Valley Railway! I'm sure there are several other preservered lines out there too that could claim to have had a scot grace their rails, the NVR perhaps?

 

Tender first at 25mph... Yes, very authentic.
I know some Scots ran on the ex-GC, but it was hardly glory days by then, was it?
Why this obsession with re-creating the dog days when steam was old hat and on the way out?
What I meant by "what's new" is "oh great, another dingy green 4-6-0. Could have been a unique handsome red one". I do realise this is anathema to some, but hey, we're all just having our two penny worth...

 

True enough! You have a point of view, not only are you entitled to it, but also to express it. That's what a forum is about.

To some extent, I have to agree with you: I too am a bit pi**ed off with the apparent need to have everything in BR livery. Variety is the spice of life, it is said, but today variety seems to be BR black or BR green.

No, no objection to a red 4-6-0 with LMS on the tender, and there are three that can legitimately do this with another under construction, but 6100? No, this is a case - and I almost hate saying it - for BR green.

 

Green or Black come on guys you can do better than that. Other than Galatea there is no red on network rail.

Time to send more money toward supporting 6201.

 

Yet we have a will be brand new Patriot which can wear LMS Crimson Lake legitimately by 2017. There's a 4-6-0 in a livery worth savouring - and I'm an LNER fan looking forward to that!

I too am a little weary of the BR liveries at the minute, however I do accept the argument for historical or close to historical accuracy. That's why 4472's change to 60103 IS a legitimate and fair livery to paint her in, and why 6100 to 46100 is too. Neither physically had their grouping liveries in service and the closest livery to authentic historical portrayals outside of preservation and as working is BR dark green.

What I would like to see more than anything is one of the surviving A4s (or all three actually) in LNER garter blue with red wheelsets, with the valances removed, in postwar numerals in LNER livery. Bittern is very close but she's kept her LNER pre-war numerals/lettering when they should really be stainless steel lettering or plain Gill Sans white numerals and lettering for early BR. But that's a by the by: she still looks fabulous. The grouping and pre-grouping liveries always do. The BR liveries are handsome and smart enough, but they're not stunning: and they certainly don't turn the head as much as crimson lake, malachite green, garter blue, apple green, caledonian blue...you get the picture.

It's a shame though that we're missing the fact that 46100 is potentially in the best condition, and the most historically accurate one too, that she's been in since withdrawal and in steam. Surely that is worth celebrating? Preservation at its best and on the mainline. Who knows: we might see her and Scots Guardsman in steam together on the mainline. Wouldn't that be something?

 

I'm obviously in the minority, preferring good looks to "authenticity". Perhaps because the only steam I've ever known is preserved steam, in a glorious variety of liveries (in the 80s).
I will leave you with this magnificent view of what might have been, and perhaps one day will be again...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/martin65/3498116110/
(not my photo)

 

The pink machine. What a sight!!!!

 

I would say, just be grateful we have steam in this day & age - be it heritage or mainline.

If I had the bottomless pit to own a steam loco....... I'd do with it what the hell I liked, and sod the purists!

We should all be grateful to the likes of JH who have, and to those who pay good money to ride behind steam on both a 25mph 'trundle' or a 75mph gallop.

 

You'll forgive me I hope, but I sincerely hope 46100 never appears like that again.

Now in a correct shade of LMS crimson lake, that would be a different ball game...!

Truly I despaired at the choice of paint colour when they rolled her out in 2009. 4472's livery might not have been physically correct for the locomotive and tender but it was at least the correct shade and the application was always faultless. Although saying that, I note the letters on the cabside and numerals on the tender are mismatched in height, which, so far as it goes for 6100 as built, was correct for the crimson lake livery.

 

Interesting to note that the main frames appear to be virtually perfect and it's the bits bolted on - buffer beam and running plate - that have almost formed a crumple zone around the frames. Surely that would have been repairable?

 

As to the pink, in that particular photo I can't see it is hugely offensive, comparing to other LMS locos. I have seen others which looked rather cerise. Crimson lake is always notoriously variable in photos depending on light conditions. The superb "Pre Grouping in Colour" by Jenkinson illustrates well.

 

Thanks for posting that, saw it along with a row of withdrawn Scots on my only trip to Annesley with the school railway club, I clearly remembered one with front end damage, but couldn't remember which one !

 

If everyone wants to see a Crimson Lake Scot how about giving the Patriot project a load of money to finish the Pat, Build a 2-6-4t and then enough money to build a parallel boilered Scot..... now that would be a sight to see! Then all we need is a rake of LMS stock to get special dispensation like these teaks have up at the moors!

 

I feel that I must agree with you there. Colour perception (especially reds and greens) can be an issue, especially with human males and some colour photographs taken many years ago will not necessarily represent what the human eye actually saw. Add to that the industrial pollution which pervaded all major towns and cities up to the late 1960s and you have the recipe for "colour illusion". If that wasn't bad enough, blue can also be a pesky colour too depending on light conditions, particularly the early BR Blue as presently carried by 6023 and carried until recently by 60163. I admit to rather liking the blue myself.

Regarding the Scot, I can see the day when a parallel boiler may well be built for it (I can't give a justification for the cost but someone might think its money well spent!). After all, a similar boiler is under construction for a rather splendid new LMS loco at the moment.

 

I for one would be grateful for a summary of the differences between Midland red, LMS red and the red livery that was applied to at least a few Stanier pacifics (and anything else?) by BR.

As for taper-boiler Scots not having been red in LMS or BR days -- how about disguising this one as the original parallel-boiler version, with false boiler and firebox cladding and a dummy smokebox? (That's what they're doing for 4709 to disguise the no. 1 boiler it will start life with.) Apart from the double chimney, which you would have to either put up with or change back to single, how much else would still look wrong?