If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

6100 Royal Scot

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by neildimmer, May 18, 2013.

  1. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    2,857
    Likes Received:
    2,793
    If 6100's return is a few years away why not stuff and mount it somewhere (e.g. Bressingham) in the meantime?
     
  2. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    I must agree that Ian has quite enough to deal with at the moment. His own fleet, contract work and finding new premises. When he has found a suitable location and completed the move then he might be open to tender for the completion of this engine should it be put out such. As others have observed there is no real need for 6100 to be rushed to completion, Mr Hosking has a substantial commitment to locomotives already "in ticket" or actively undergoing work. The "Scot" may have to remain in limbo for a while longer.
     
  3. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    8,239
    Likes Received:
    5,250
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Freelance photo - journalist
    Location:
    Southport
    Assuming such a position is tenable. Given the receipt of National Lottery funding there may be time-critical scenarios to meet in order to avoid the impression of fraud; whilst the restoration of 6100 is not fraudulent per se there have been queries raised about earlier cost decisions and the expenditure in relation to progressing the restoration.

    I was led to believe when the NatLot funds were granted that a time line was set up to monitor progress; is that still the case ?
     
  4. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,072
    Likes Received:
    20,781
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Do you mean in the same way as with 4472?!........Sorry - had to say it but please don't let's get diverted. We can at least be certain that no tour operator will have 46100 billed as motive power in 2014.
     
  5. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    16,510
    Likes Received:
    7,753
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I wonder what the terms of the lottery funding were, if it simply stated that the loco had to be restored to working order, then that was achieved. It worked. Twice, I believe.
     
  6. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,414
    Likes Received:
    2,729
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chester le Street County Durham
    I wonder what the terms of the lottery funding were, if it simply stated that the loco had to be restored to working order, then that was achieved. It worked. Twice, I believe.

    Although they "think" they have met the criteria of a Lottery Funding Bid, and delivered, I can assure you the methods, and the state of the loco now will not have gone un noticed.

    While people shrug their shoulders on the desperate state of affairs, why would National Lottery entertain bids or applications from parties who have patently not delivered.

    In the long term it is another one dropped, and the paper chain will make interesting reading for the justification of funds.

    As someone who has had great success with Sport England, I know what is involved, how you have to word a application, and the hoops you have to jump through to make these things happen.

    Again the movement shoots itself in the foot, and before people say their are loads of good work done, 2 major failures are in the public domain at the same time.
     
  7. martin butler

    martin butler Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    3,440
    Likes Received:
    388
    Guy Carr 360, But as the loco has in effect changed hands does that still have any bearing, for instance, could Bressingham at some stage find itself having to pay back the lottery funding, as it was them who applied in the first place should it be found that the conditions have not been fully met?
     
  8. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    5,294
    Likes Received:
    3,596
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Whatever. The outcome is that this is another high profile steam locomotive project gone horribly wrong. It won't have gone unnoticed, and it won't help the case for future applications.
     
  9. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    16,510
    Likes Received:
    7,753
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I wonder if the HLF think that two loco projects that have not gone to plan are any more endemic than say two sports projects that similarly stumble? I would imagine/hope not.
     
  10. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Messages:
    7,570
    Likes Received:
    2,346
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired Engineer & Heritage Volunteer
    Location:
    N Warks
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Probably somewhat dependent on the total number they have funded - anybody know what that would be?
     
  11. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,414
    Likes Received:
    2,729
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chester le Street County Durham
    But as the loco has in effect changed hands does that still have any bearing, for instance, could Bressingham at some stage find itself having to pay back the lottery funding, as it was them who applied in the first place should it be found that the conditions have not been fully met?

    A difficult one to answer, I would think the chances of the group that applied for funding ever receiving again are slim, due to poor performance, I would have expected main line running, being used for excursions, being seen all over the country would all have been in the application. Its how they work, and how you sell your project to HLF. The fact that none of that has been delivered, barring a couple of steamings, and 6 years down the line it lies in bits at Crewe, with no apparent (would like to be wrong) progress, does your movement no good at all.

    Whatever. The outcome is that this is another high profile steam locomotive project gone horribly wrong. It won't have gone unnoticed, and it won't help the case for future applications.

    That is the real danger, with the Olympics gone, maybe more £££ will be available, these failures could not bode well for future large applications.
    Bear in mind MANY items would not have been restored without HLF funds, to patently fail in 2 high profile cases so badly, could kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

    I wonder if the HLF think that two loco projects that have not gone to plan are any more endemic than say two sports projects that similarly stumble? I would imagine/hope not.

    Because sports projects have governing bodies between the HLF and the applicant, they have a way of making sure the projects succeed, something that is missing in your movement.

    Just think of the number of projects that have had help of HLF funds, the great work done, that's what stands a chance of being lost.....
     
  12. martin butler

    martin butler Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    3,440
    Likes Received:
    388
    i think that in future the heritage lottery fund will probally insist on some third party inspection of the work done and that funds are being spent properly most likily by someone who has a good reputation ,someone like Bob Meanley
     
  13. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    5,294
    Likes Received:
    3,596
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I don't think that the failure of some of loco projects (and there have been others that have struggled - I'm thiking of 71000s last overhaul, for example) will affect the outcome of all big future applications from heritage railways, or even from loco owning groups (the Bahamas people got theirs) but I'm sure that bars will be raised and there will be more hoops to weed out the weaker projects.
     
  14. THE MELTER

    THE MELTER Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2006
    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    63
    Occupation:
    ENGINEER
    Location:
    BLACK COUNTRY
    On the contrary i believe it is because of the vast majority of projects that did succeed that the lottery people will see these two projects for what they are,
    two isolated cases and a very small percentage of the whole. I would imagine that the value they have seen from all the other railway related schemes ( not just loco based)
    would give them a feeling of confidence in our movement, constantly highlighting these two failures will do nothing for anyone, it is not the difficulties of these two projects that will put future funding at risk it is the midless old women on here who have nothing better to do than look at other peoples dirty laundry and keep shouting the odds .



    The Melter
     
    Spamcan81, RalphW and Martin Perry like this.
  15. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Messages:
    7,570
    Likes Received:
    2,346
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired Engineer & Heritage Volunteer
    Location:
    N Warks
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  16. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    2,857
    Likes Received:
    2,793
    If you type Royal Scot in the Heritage Lottery site's search box it shows a grant of £547,000 in 2002. The recipient is named as the Royal Scot Locomotive and General Trust. Since the Trust did not exist in 2002 I assume this entry was updated when the locomotive was sold by Bressingham. I would not be surprised if the terms and conditions of such a large grant required consultation with and/or approval of the HLF before any sale took place.
     
  17. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,414
    Likes Received:
    2,729
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chester le Street County Durham
    On the contrary i believe it is because of the vast majority of projects that did succeed that the lottery people will see these two projects for what they are,
    two isolated cases and a very small percentage of the whole. I would imagine that the value they have seen from all the other railway related schemes ( not just loco based)
    would give them a feeling of confidence in our movement, constantly highlighting these two failures will do nothing for anyone, it is not the difficulties of these two projects that will put future funding at risk it is the midless old women on here who have nothing better to do than look at other peoples dirty laundry and keep shouting the odds .

    That's a very simplistic view, you don't have to look much further for many other not so high profile problems.

    Remind us how much 6100 & 4472 were awarded of the £8.1m quoted by Sheff.

    Is it 1 or 2%??????

    Thought not.......

    Try nearer 15%, if football or another sport was failing at that level, the red tops would be involved, so maybe getting somebody to act as a "moderator" for Lottery Money is not so bad an idea, as suggested.

    Burying your head in the sand is obviously your preferred method of viewing the matter......
     
    Sheff likes this.
  18. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Was the loco sold? If Bressingham is/was a trust, selling the assets of that trust is no straightforward matter in my experience.
     
  19. Matt35027

    Matt35027 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    143
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Builder
    Location:
    Near 74D
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It wasn't sold, it was 'transferred' to the Royal Scot Locomotive General Trust. Jeremy Hosking sits on the board of this trust (along with several other people) so it's by no means 'his' locomotive.
     
  20. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    That's what I thought.
     

Share This Page