6201, her new lease of life.

The John Cameron situation that arises with 60009 and the unique K4 61994 is not the same. He has been offered, I understand, a number of different workable solutions to funding for both and has refused all offers.

This does however help to cement for me the difference between an owner and a custodian of a steam locomotive. The artist, David Shepherd, knew he could not continue to run 92203 Black Prince, and sold the locomotive to the North Norfolk Railway, having been satisfied with their intentions and their history in looking after his locomotive.

He knew he was but a part of the locomotive's history. In time we all become just a record in the ownership of a locomotive. It is life, and we should accept that beyond our own lifespans there will be other humans, just as enthusiastic, maybe moreso, with different skills and ideas, that can care for these leviathans.

The question remains, when do you decide to call it a day, and hand over the reins? That's something I can't say definitely, but perhaps it is a personal one for the best interests of the locomotive to always be met. If Lizzie is stuffed and mounted, is holding onto ownership or a controlling stake in her fate working in the best interests of the locomotive?

EDIT: Edited for correction to the sale relating to 92203.

 

" The artist, David Shepherd, knew he could not continue to run 92203 Black Prince, and sold the locomotive for £1 to the North Norfolk Railway,"

For just a pound, I find that hard to believe, why on earth would he do that ? I read somewhere that the North Norfolk were paying for it gradually over a 10 year period and only after the 10 years would it be officially theirs.
I do agree though that owners should seek to sell/donate/pass it on if they feel that they are now too old to continue and John Camerons idea of a museum is only short term. When he dies whoever then owns them will inevitably sell them on. Does he not have any children that might continue looking after them ? I guess because he has owned 60009 for so long he can't bring himself to part with it.

Getting back to 6201, it seems to be they are closely working with the PRCLT ( Duchess of Sutherland owners), I understand they even use the same Engineer. Might it be that the two groups will merge ? Although I admit as they already own the other Princess they may not want to, but there are advantages that parts could be swapped etc.

 

OK so let's put a few things out there. Most if not all groups are all volunteers, depending if you have an engineering dept etc, so what you can achieve is completely down to volunteers.

But talking about long term planning and having people sign up to the donor/convenant scheme for £10 per month etc and it will ONLY be the core enthusiast who will fill this, ask the A1 trust and I'm sure they will tell you 99% of those are railway enthusiasts. Joe public won't. So if you want to go down the route of getting loads of one off donations of Joe public, which is possible, you will never be able to stop as you won't have the people signed up to keep it going without constant effort, which is demanding on the volunteer! Plus you would need the right type of volunteer who is customer focused to do that in the first place. Let's say you stood in a city centre as a charity and managed to raise £650 in a day (and I seriously think that would be quite difficult to do) that would still take one thousand days of volunteering, or 3 years none stop to achieve the £650,000 required according to that post.

You want to find a way of getting maximum money for minimum effort, or you need a group of volunteers willing to push as hard as possible. I was out volunteering on Fri/sat/sun and we managed to sign up 3 new members 2 of which became monthly donors. Our other stand was at a Telford model show and managed to sign up another monthly donor. Now add the amount sold on the stall with the donors money for the next 2 years and we have added about another £2000+ to the bank. Do that over 25 weekends and you have £50,000 straight away. Keep doing it year after year adding new donors and your income soon becomes into the £100,000 plus per year (something most groups are unable to achieve when you go onto the charity commission website and search for them). Then there are the very very few groups that are able to fundraise in the multiple hundreds of thousands per year. Last financial year the LMS Patriot project raised £427,000 and this year is on target to raise £498,000 (hopefully over £500,000 once the total is in!!) But it has taken years of hard work and commitment to get to that point. You build up and up. While everyone goes on about how well the P2 does in terms of fundraising, which it does, this is all down to the hard work the A1 did in the starting years building year on year to grow.

 

Hmm do I hear the sound of nails being hit firmly on the head? I think you make a very valid point Simon. I think that there's quite a few of Lizzie's team who have been involved for some time, have got rather stuck in their ways and can't see that they need to be a bit more receptive to change. Sometimes the hardest thing to do with something like Lizzie is to take a step back, a deep breath and good long hard look things and think 'As a custodian of this piece of history am I doing what's right by it? Have I done my bit, is now the right time to move on and let someone else have a go?' Of course it's always easier for someone like myself from the outside looking in to say 'walk away, but do it safe in knowledge you've done your bit and left a pretty decent legacy'

 

I must confess to knowing nothing about the make up of the 6201 group, apart from their dirty washing was heavily aired on here a few years back when they moved the locomotive base (may have been from ELR to Crewe although I admit I don't remember).

However to an outsider looking in it does appear to be a group that has got itself in a bit of a pickle and doesn't seem to have a viable route to move forward (or at least has not revealed one as yet), the communication seems generally poor as news always seems to emerge as rumours and even the potential for joining the group seems to tied up with rumour and conjecture which I believe was also circulating in wake of the previous crisis...

An observation for this group and many others would be the lack of any form of succession planning, a quick check on Companies House website suggests that of the Directors of the Ltd company behind the society, bar one they are all 70+ and thus sadly will not be around for ever and could really do with passing their undoubted experience to a younger generation, this combined with the mystery surrounding the group does suggest that if a critical point hasn't been reached, it may be shortly, whilst the peculiar overhaul and subsequent funding appeal does not suggest that a long term plan or project management is in place?

Whatever I really wish them all the best.

 

Sorry chaps, I may have got that wrong, clearly! My recollection was that it was sold for a £1 - or was that symbolic?

 

That's quite a statement to make without any evidence to back it up.

As I understand it, the locos are now in a trust which will provide for their future well being and any decisions on whether they are operational or not. Details are here: https://www.totalgiving.co.uk/charity/the-cameron-railway-trust-scio (only using total giving for the info as Scottish Charity Commission site is down for maintenance at the minute)


Keith

 

Merch - it's a useful money-spinner for a lot of businesses, but brand loyalty also comes into it. Once you've bought the mug and T-shirt, you may well be easier to entice into parting with more cash for something altogether bigger... and yes, I know there has to be a pump-primer funding-wise. The problem with all this "the public won't support it" nonsense is that nobody has really tried. Even the A1/P2SLT's roadshows are more like conferences, not conspicuous public events outdoors in civic spaces. Go to a major public space, set out your stall, sell merch, do the PR, get people interested. Lizzy has golden PR/branding potential that many other loco owners would kill for - named after the present, popular, longest-ever-serving monarch, has hauled the Royal Train, and didn't it play some part in Olympic festivities five years ago? Or was it a royal Jubilee (no, not a 5xP!)... either way, it was on a bridge over the Thames and kicked off the celebrations with a blast on its hooter (it was televised at the time)... a bit of imaginative thinking could work wonders for Lizzy!

Alas, I fear the current group has lost the plot, but won't let go either. Ditto Cameron. Mind you, I've had a feeling something was wrong with him about No9 the moment I realised how 'wrong' the shape of the curve where the green side meets the black front is... compare and contrast in the Great Gathering photos it and 60008! This one (cropped from a Locoyard blog image) shows what I mean. It certainly wasn't like that in BR days, and it annoys the heck out of my OCD!

 

I never even saw it, what did it say?

 

John Cameron has set up a Trust for these locos and they have been transferred to this so there is no question of them being sold on unless the Trust is wound up. The Trusts objectives are:

"The Trustees shall hold the trust estate for the following purposes:- (i) to provide a suitable exhibition space at Balbuthie for those locomotives and other railway heritage assets transferred into the trust for their public display for educational and historical preservation purposes and to arrange for the installation of the locomotives and other railways assets; and (ii) to arrange for the public display of the locomotives, numbers 60009 and 61994 and all other assets gifted to the trust or purchased by them, in a manner compatible with their conservation and preservation for the benefit of the general public and railway historians. "

There is the possibility of the locos going elsewhere on public display but I can't see the Trustees letting their major exhibits go out on loan whilst the exhibition space at Balbuthie is open.

 

Agreed on imagination, but you also need to balance risk and opportunity. Though I'm more optimistic on the amount a bucket collection could raise than some, I'm still struggling to see how it could outdo significant event costs.

Sadly, there's also a question of trust. I remember declining A1 Steam Trust leaflets 25 years ago because I couldn't see it. Today, I'd google a group and see their track record. As recounted here, that wouldn't encourage me...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

To raise the large amount of cash needed to get Lizzie up and running entirely from the enthusiast sector is not realistic as the A1 Trust knew from the outset for their new builds. So the answer has got to be either one benefactor with a deep pocket (unlikely unless my Euromillions numbers come up this week) or broaden the appeal. If it can be done for the A1 it should be easier for a locomotive with Lizzie's history and the very powerful selling point of being named after the current Monarch. Perhaps a Covenent scheme with the slogan ' Help us whistle in the Queens 95th birthday' or some such. It just needs something to motivate people to donate in large volumes. It's worked for the A1 T use and the Patriot but the half hearted on their website will get the Society nowhere.

 

I'm not sure that a repair fund has the same appeal as a new build locomotive.

 

As I mentioned in the last page, as both a young person and a journalist (I write about cars for a living), I'm baffled as to why the trust hasn't at least attempted to gain any kind of media coverage. All it would take would be for the BBC to run an online news story with the headline of "Locomotive named after the queen needs £??? to get back into steam", some decent quotes from the chairman of the trust on why it needs the funds and details on how people can donate.

As is the way with the media, once one publication picks up on a story, others will follow suit. Heck, I'd be happy to help out the trust with press releases and the like.

Or what about asking someone like Tom Scott - a popular Youtuber who I'm sure would like this kind of story - to come and visit the works, get some words from the chairman on camera and say how people can help out. I'm sure there are other Youtubers out there with mass appeal.

Setting up a half-hearted Gofundme appeal and expecting the dosh to roll in won't help. I've said this time and time again about both charter companies and locomotive owners, but the industry as a whole needs to 'do an A1ST' and embrace the internet and social media and think outside the box.

There is an appetite among both the general public and enthusiasts to fund railway related things - look how successful the All The Stations project was. Why? Because they had lively, interesting people giving regular updates on their progress with tangible rewards, but I'm sorry, saying 'please give us £50 and you can maybe win a golden (why?) Hornby model' won't cut it in this day and age.

 

The principal directing minds of the Society do not want to embark on a course of action that would result in them having to cede the slightest control.

 

Dare I say it but I have a feeling we'll see something like 82045 turn a wheel before 6201 does again.

 

Sadly, I think there's a risk 72010 may be completed before 46201 steams again. I wish them the best of luck, though, whatever transpires.

 

At what point is the PES going to have to get wound up? I'm pretty sure its current insularity cannot be in compliance with Charity Commission rules.

Would a takeover of PES (or at least 6201 itself) by PRCLT help, or even be viable?

If Lizzy is out of action long-term, does that leave an opening for Maggie Rose?